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Change in Rollerization Position - Enjoying some tasty Crow Pie... Yum Yum!

scottmastrocinque

scottmastrocinque

GT Godfather!
GT di Razza Pura
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
5,862
Location
Lima, Ohio
Happy New Year!

Well, with winter time on us here in Northwest Ohio, and the break between the academic semesters at the university of my "let's get a PhD at 50 years of age...", I have time to read for myself and pleasure.

So, I stumbled upon some writings on another site, by Pete Roper about failures of the flat tappet bikes in Oz. It seems Mr. Roper had a 180 degree turnaround on his original position about the matter, and after reading all that he had to say, I became convinced as well that failure is not a question of if, but rather a question of when.

I do all of my own service but I never really paid close attention to roller/non-roller because frankly, I didn't care. I bought the bike. Moto Guzzi had my money in full, and I had the bike (my 5th Guzzi over the years). I did not want to become angry about this especially since nothing was wrong with my bike and I didn't want to convince myself of doom and gloom and that Moto Guzzi (i.e. Piaggio) had fucked me along with everybody else.

Curiosity was now killing me and I couldn't stand myself so I braved going out to my garage, and popped off a valve cover and looked carefully to identify my valve train.

This is what I found.

IMG_1075.jpg


IMG_1074_1.jpg


From what I could gather from pictures that others had posted, my bike was built at the factory with roller tappets! Halleluia! God bless Giulio Cesare Carcano!

I hope this is what I am seeing! Given that my date of manufacture was 3/12, (UPDATE: Engine # AC 012683) I am very surprised and overjoyed. I was planning on doing the rollerization with tax refund money this year, but now, I can plan a really nice road trip.

To those who have suffered the failure, I am sorry for your frustration. For those of you who have yet to rollerize, thanks to Pete Roper, I now firmly believe that early intervention is much more preferable to eventual failure. Consider it if you haven't!

May everybody have the most wonderful "New Year" and I am grateful for this fantastic forum and the people who make it so good. Thank you!

Safe Riding!

Scott Mastrocinque
 
Last edited:
Follow-up. Found this info and not sure if it is here somewhere or not. May save some people some time.

According to Piaggio, Roller tappets are in the following engines.

Stelvio AC : After AC12596 03/12/2012
Griso A8 : After 13524 04/12/2012
Norge AA : After 12214 04/18/2012

:)
 
Scott, yep, those are rollers. Happy New Year. Enjoy that frip. ;)
 
Ye Scott, What a beautiful feeling when you lift the cover and find rollers where you expected to find flatties:clap:

I got that same feeling when I done the first valve check on my 2013 registered (but 2011 build year model) Stelvio. I was prepared to do the roller conversion only to get the pleasant surprise that someone had beaten me to it. For a change I lucked out.:)

I had made the decision when I bought it that I would do the conversion straight away as I agree that they all need to be done. lucky, lucky,
 
Didn't do any proper research before I bought mine ('09 A8 Engine), if I had done, I would have most-likely stumped up another £1000 or so for a 'Roller'.

No worries though, I popped into Agostinis when I was on a Fly-Rent Bike trip last Sep, and picked up this little package . . .
RockerKit

I've got the Bike in bits at the moment for various other mods/jobs, so I'll be whipping the 'tops' off soon.
 
Oh my, looks like a ton of work! I'm happy for you that you have the parts, :clap: and I'm happy for me that I dodged that bullet! :whew:
 
It is actually not that hard with Kit A as you don't need to get to the valve springs. From the time I walked into the garage to the time I started the bike was 3 hrs or so and that included beer breaks.
 
I don't drink . . . :)
I know the Map for the 'Rollers' is different, but what are the basic differences?
I recall a mention somewhere of a slightly lower Rev Limit, due to the extra Mass.
 
Hey, all--- I really appreciate this in-depth discussion. A question and a (probably asking a lot) request:
1) My 2012 Norge engine # shows the designation AA, then the eagle stamp, then the # 012241. Your discussion on this thread, Scott, says that engines
"Norge AA : After 12214 04/18/2012"
have the rollers. Do you have a source for this Piaggio info? I know much info emanating from Piaggio / Moto Guzzi Land is uncertain, sometimes even apparently contradictory, so it'd be helpful to be able to go to that source. One very experienced dealer/mechanic looked at my heads during servicing, told me I had rollers, then looked up the #s in the database he consults (I don't know what it is) and told me I had flats. Confused!
2) OK, I'm bone-ignorant. I look at the photos at the top of this thread and have no idea exactly what distinguishes flat from roller. I know this is asking a lot, but would anyone have the time to draw arrows on an image or two and show me exactly what visible feature would settle this question?
If I'd been intelligent enough to take a picture of the exposed valves during servicing, I could just show you guys a picture! But if you can mark up one of the pics above, I can take my head cover off and have a look.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Bill
 
If the Mechanic looked at the Engine with the Covers off and says it has Rollers, I'd go with that.
Database will tell you what it has/had from the Factory.
Roller conversion could have been done since, as many, many have.

Very easy to check.

Rollers.
Roller

Flats.
Stelvio Tappets
 
Wow! This is awesome! Many thanks. So, the rollers look like the little on-their-side barrels in there with the diameter-through vertical openings. And the flat tappets appear as, essentially, flat discs? If it's that simple, even I can see it! ;)
It's funny that the same shop would offer a "those are rollers" eyeball judgement and then a ""flat" judgement based on data. That's why I couldn't feel certain--- even though when I looked at them, I thought what I saw looked like your
https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/attachments/roller-jpg.12451/
But I am ignorant, so I'll want to double-check by taking the cover off. And now, with your help, I'll know what I'm seeing. BIG thanks.
 
The 'Flat' designation refers to the Contact Faces themselves, where they contact the Cam.
You can't actually see that until the Cam Boxes are removed, as they're buried underneath.
DLC Gone

As I mentioned, the Database will only tell you what it left the Factory with.
I'm not sure if it's updated by Dealers if the Roller Conversion has been done (and only then if it's done by a Dealer, and if they actually update the Database),so I wouldn't go by that.
If the Mechanic who looked at it is familiar with the Conversion, then they'd be the one to go with as far as confirmation goes.

You only need remove the Plug Cover (one small screw under the pop-off Guzzi Badge), pull the Plug cap off, then remove the four Cover Screws to check.
 
OK. Regrouping, because I'm dense..,

1) According to Scott's report, above, my 2012 machine's engine #, AA 012241, is in the rollers-at-factory group.
According to my mechanic's initial eyeball impression, machine had the rollers.
According to same mechanic, later in day, same engine number means machine didn't have rollers-at-factory and doesn't have them now.
Outside of possibility of rollers having been done aftermarket, and/or my mechanic being confused, I'd like to resolve the straight-up what-does-my-engine-#-prove-about-how-it-left-the-factory question.
Any ideas on that database?

2) a. If I understand you correctly, John, I would not be able to see whether I have flat tappets unless I remove camboxes.
b. But do I also understand correctly that I WILL be able to see if I have rollers just by removing plug cover and looking for the rollers? so
c. If I see that I have the rollers, I do NOT have flat tappets, and nothing needs fixing?

Sorry for list making. Just trying to get this through my head.

Bill
 
No problem, it can be confusing if you've not been involved in delving inside.

1. I'd imagine the Guzzi/Piaggio database can be like any other, capable of saying two totally different things on the same day.

2. a. & b. You can see if it has Flats or Rollers simply by removing the Cam Covers, see first two pics I posted.
The Plug Covers only give access to the Plug Caps, you have to pull the Plug Caps off the Plugs before you can remove the Cam Covers.
c. Correct. If you find Rollers, just smile happily and replace the Covers, then go on to enjoy many tens-of-Thousands of carefree miles.
 
GT-Rx® said:
This shows the incorrect way to do many things including removing the plug wire. Do NOT do it that way.
Click to expand...

I didn't say copy it . . . ;)
. . . gives you an idea what's involved, and what it all looks like when stripped down.
Click to expand...
.
Nothing wrong with levering the Plug Cap off like that really, other than the small risk of marking the Cover.

Anyone competent/experienced enough to attempt the job would surely avoid duplicating any of the other slight 'mechanical misdemeanours' shown in the video.
 
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