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Valve adjuster on Norge 1200?

Discussion in 'BNS12 Chat & Tech' started by Dycokac, May 15, 2017.

  1. Dycokac

    Dycokac Just got it firing!

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  2. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Founder!

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    No, unless whoever is setting your valves simply does not understand proper torque for the application. Those adjuster nuts are fine threads and require very little torque to hold them in place. Over torquing them will damage them and cause them to fail.
     
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  3. Dycokac

    Dycokac Just got it firing!

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    I'm confused on how the engine doesn't seem to run any different other than the knock in this situation.
     
  4. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Founder!

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    People write here all the time about this sound and that sound and to be quite honest, it is almost impossible to diagnose "a sound" over the internet, kind of like asking you what you think of my cooking over the internet, or what you think about this item I'm looking at over the phone...you get the idea.

    The question you set forth was "This shouldn't be a common thing, right?" and my answer to you is, no it shouldn't.

    That being said, if the same person over torqued the first adjusting nut, it stands to reason that they over torqued the second nut which I would have immediately checked.

    That being said, your statement of "I'm confused on how the engine doesn't seem to run any different other than the knock in this situation" is redundant. The engine isn't running the same, it's knocking. Engines that are running properly, do not knock. Period.

    Knocking sounds coming from an engine are a sign that there is a serious problem which needs immediate attention.

    STRONG ADVICE: Stop riding it, and get your bike looked at by your mechanic.
     
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  5. Dycokac

    Dycokac Just got it firing!

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    On the subject of Redunancy, you don't think i got enough of that in the other thread?

    Thanks for showing me how the members of this forum really are when it comes to helping new folks.

    I'm not going to hold the attitudes of others on this forum against Todd and his Business, but I'll get off all of ya'lls lawns now and show myself out.
     
  6. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Founder!

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    Hey Dycokac, you are reading in something that definitely is not there. I've tried to help you the best I could. I did not mean to upset you and I'm sorry you misinterpreted it that way.

    I go out of my way to try and help people here, especially the new people.

    (http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/2013-v7-racer-exhaust-popping-noise.17192/page-2#post-129599

    I don't know how to tell you that your bike has a problem, other than the way I did. No additive to the crankcase, no prayer by a priest, no wishful thinking is going to rectify a "knocking" in the engine and nobody here is going to be able to give you a definitive diagnosis over the internet or offer you a "turn this screw 1/4 turn and all your problems will go away" solution. The only thing we can give to you is to be honest about the severity of the issue, tell you to stop riding it, and send you back to your mechanic ASAP.

    For Pete's sake, how is that a negative in the context of "how the members of this forum really are when it comes to helping new folks."?

    Please, take a breath and relax. Nobody, least of all me, is trying to be mean or rude to you. I legitimately was trying to help you out. Geographically, I'm in your backyard and would be happy to help you out personally so relax and again, I'm sorry you felt abused. Not intended at all.

    EDIT: I went back and re-read each and every post you wrote and every response everybody wrote you. Everybody was nice to you and offered excellent advice and help. For the life of me, I cannot see what has you so upset. I suspect you are directing your frustration with your motorcycle on those of us who are trying to help you out.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  7. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Not uncommon Dycokac, but necessarily a good thing either. The Guzzi engines make all sorts of rackets, some good, some not so good. I suspect yours to be the not so good part since there is history.

    Adjusters backing off is not common, but has been known to happen. When you say the adjuster broke, it is the actual adjuster screw, or was it the lock nut that holds it in place.

    If it was the adjuster, and it backed off completely (ie. the valve would not open) you would most likely have a runnability issue. I suspect that you have something else happening like a scored cam or tappet failure. It would still run ok at first, but then start to get worse. I would take a lot of time for that to happen. Either way, it needs to be opened up to see what the issue is.

    If it still has flat tappets, I would suspect this to be the cause and most likely you can get the part for free from the dealer. Could you still ride it....yes if it is just a warn tappet or cam but you should get it repaired as quickly as you can. It will only get worse and start to affect the running of the motor as the valve opening will be affected and also build up metal filings in the engine. I know a guy who went a few thousand kilometers with the engine sounding like a bag of hammers due to warn tappets.

    If it is indeed an adjuster failure then I would not ride it. You can tell quickly if this is the cause by taking off the cam cover.

    I don't know your mechanical abilities. If you are good with engines, taking off the came box and inspecting the cam and tappets would be the 1st course of action after ruling out he adjusters as the cause. Otherwise, it will be a trip to the dealer.
     
  8. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Founder!

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    Canuk, this is a 2007 build date 2V engine. I have never heard of a cam or tappet failure in a 2V engine but although unlikely, it is possible...

    In his previous post on this same topic, he did post a nice recording which to my ear, the noise is not at crankshaft speed, but rather camshaft speed (slower), but I cannot be certain.

    Dycokac - In the few motorcycles where I have seen this type of failure, the adjuster (#2 in the photo) remained intact and the nut (#1 in the photo) was broken or stripped. Then, in each case, the adjuster was loosening itself gradually, causing a wider space between the rocker arm and the valve stem (#3 in the photo) and a progressively louder tapping sound which occurred at slower than the crankshaft speed. An increased opening of only thousands of an inch can cause quite a loud tapping, but the engine will continue to run imperceptibly, no different, than what you are used to, except for a loud tick tick tick. (What you describe as knocking).

    There is the nightmare scenario as well. If somebody over-torqued the steel cylinder bolts, then they could be pulling out from the aluminum alloy engine block, thereby increasing the clearance in the rocker assembly with each heating and cooling cycle of the engine and getting progressively louder. I'm a parsimony kind of guy who likes to take the simplest explanation when possible, so I stand pat on the valve nut adjuster like your first problem.

    You also never said if it was on the same side or the other side this time.

    Screen Shot 2017-05-16 at 12.27.38 PM.png

    Screen Shot 2017-05-16 at 12.39.11 PM.png

    Screen Shot 2017-05-16 at 12.39.28 PM.png

    Screen Shot 2017-05-16 at 12.38.50 PM.png

     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  9. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    My bad. Missed that part.
     
  10. Dycokac

    Dycokac Just got it firing!

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    I am probably confusing another comment on a different form now that I think of it. My bad mate, having the bike down isn't helping my mood much so I'm a little touchy.

    That said, I just got this bike last august with 15k miles on it. I'm pretty mechanically adept, though the bike is currently back at the dealer since I purchased an extended warranty when I got the bike so I'm letting them work on it for that reason.

    In march they diagnosed it as a broken valve adjuster, and that they found all the pieces up in the head so they felt safe about not tearing down the whole engine (I did have them change the oil since I didn't do one yet this spring anyway).

    I'm not certain if that meant the nut broke off, or if the bolt broke off, it wasn't quoted as more than a couple hundred (labor was more than the parts anyway). And the warranty covered it too.

    They said they recommend replacing the other valve adjuster for good measure, which i thought they did.

    I'm asking here partly to help feel out if the dealer is blowing smoke, or if they aren't thinking of something.

    I was reading about the tappet issues that the 8V's have, though this cam issue doesn't sound like lots of fun either.

    I should hear back from the shop later in the week what they found. I'll share back later.

    I was getting ready to start addressing the fork issues that many of us have too.
     
  11. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Founder!

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    No worries! Let's get you sorted.

    In the photos I posted, last one is the camshaft, above that the tappets, above that the pushrods, and first was the rocker assembly itself.

    Your bike is the older 2 valve style engine in the photos. They are about as bulletproof as can be. You don't have any of the same hardware that the 4 valve heads do, so no worries there.

    Truly, just a little tiny increase in the valve clearance between the rocker arm and the valve cap (#3) can cause a hell of a racket. It is discernible to the ear though because it will be running at half the speed of the crankshaft, which I believe your recording captured.

    Right now, both valve covers need to come off and the gap needs to be measured. I would ask for that and also for the gap that was found. This information will be useful in the future.

    I would pull all of the adjuster nuts and back out the adjuster screws and inspect them. If the threads all look good and there is no lateral play on the adjusters in their position in the rocker arm, then set the valve lash correctly and tighten the adjuster nuts to snug plus 1/16th of an additional turn. That's it. The art of wrench feel. They don't need more than that to prevent movement.

    After this is done, I would run the bike. The noise should be significantly quelled. Moto Guzzi engines ALWAYS have some valve noise. If they don't then they are too tight! The goal is having a gentle tick tick tick tick and not a loud bang bang bang bang.

    If the noise is not quelled, then we have a different issue altogether of which I am uncertain at this moment given no being able to actually touch the motorcycle.

    Now, if the valve noise is quelled, you should be good for 6k miles before you need to check valve lash again but at that time, I would measure what the valve gap is, and compare it to what you measured before they reset it now. If it is significantly wider than the setting used for the repair, then I would start to check the engine studs for movement.

    Basically what I am saying is that I record valve gap before adjustment, and after adjustment, and keep a logbook of it. Then the next time, I again record pre-adjustment gap and adjusted gap. This allows me to chart the drift, if any, from the normal setting.

    Valve gaps are listed here.

    Screen Shot 2017-05-16 at 1.42.23 PM.png
     
  12. Dycokac

    Dycokac Just got it firing!

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    I'll ask them about what they measured and set it at.

    And yeah, it usually ticks a bit, but while moving I can usually hear the roar of the exhaust over the ticking which was not the case yesterday. The fairing also bounces the sounds around funny while you're sitting on it and walking around it.

    I had found this valve adjustment video back in march, and it doesn't look complicated at all to adjust the valves on these guys.

     
  13. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Founder!

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    No, it's not complicated at all. You have a solid little bulletproof motorcycle, once you get this little annoying issue solved!

    Although this is a much earlier Moto Guzzi, the valve setup and ticking sound is just like your 2 valve engine - the valves have too much clearance. Again, the sound is probably sounding louder on the video than in real life. Microphones are funny things with regard to engine sounds.

     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  14. Dycokac

    Dycokac Just got it firing!

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    That video sounds very similar, in March I rode it a little longer than I should have and it changed a great deal from that.
     
  15. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    I had a valve adjuster break on my 2V 1200 Sport once (actually, Todd was riding it at the time). The locking nut and the top of the adjuster broke away, allowing the remaining part of the adjuster unscrew itself to create a large adjustment gap.

    Todd kindly took the bike back to my residence on the back of his pickup, and I managed to get another screw from Mark at Motor Guzzi Classics.

    Why did this happen? I believe the lock nuts were fastened far too tight, the previous owner or service people must have had a 3 foot wrench to tight it. The remaining three were also done up too tight.
     
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  16. Dycokac

    Dycokac Just got it firing!

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    I'll definitely remove the covers and check the tightness when I get it back then.
     
  17. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Founder!

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    I watched your video and it's pretty good. Just remember:

    On a stone cold engine.

    Spark plugs removed both sides to relieve pressures and allow hand rotation of the rear wheel in high gear.

    Piston at TOP DEAD CENTER. He used a chopstick through the spark plug hole to feel TDC in the video, but wood can splinter, I recommend the fat/wide Slurpee Straws.

    slurpee.jpg

    Remember at TDC, both rocker arms should have up and down play in them because they should both be loose as both valves should be closed at TDC.

    Nice even but not tight drag on the feeler gauge at 0.10mm intake side, and 0.15mm exhaust side.

    Lock nut snugged up on the adjustment screw plus 1/16th of a turn - No more. Recheck gap and redo if necessary. You will get the feel for it.

    Repeat other side of bike first finding TDC for that piston.

    Wipe all fluid and any debris from mating surfaces between valve cover and cylinder head with a clean soft rag or cloth. If something is stuck to the surface, like a previous gasket material, use a hand held brass bristle brush, (Super cheap at Harbor Fright in Grand Rapids, MI) (never steel), to gently remove the debris.

    He used a torque wrench on the valve cover and in fact, said "inch-ounce" but the wrench he is using is an "inch-pounds" wrench. Inch-ounce wrenches are very expensive and only used in super critical torque applications and I've never used on in 40 years of wrenching on motorcycles. I don't recommend a torque wrench for the valve cover as I have seen many stripped threads and over-torqued bolts because of this obsession with a number. Again, the art of wrench feel should prevail here. It's not a reciprocating part nor is it taking a large load. It's just holding the surfaces of the valve cover and cylinder head together with the seal to stop passive splash oil from coming out. So - Same as before - Snugged all bolts up first and then add 1/16th of a turn more in a crosswise pattern. Your hand will develop a sense of feel for the correct force. This will be more than enough.

    Done.

    When you start her up, there should be a gentle valve rocker arm sound of tick tick tick from the rocker arm tapping on the valve top when running.

    Good Luck!
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  18. Dycokac

    Dycokac Just got it firing!

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    I did come across a picture somewhere that used a bendy straw instead of a piece of wood.

    Should I get a set of Valve cover gaskets to have on hand? I'm assuming the gasket can be re-used a couple of times instead of replacing it every time?
     
  19. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT Founder!

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  20. Dycokac

    Dycokac Just got it firing!

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    So I just heard from the shop, and it was the intake side adjuster failed (it was the exhaust side last time that failed).

    I swear I gave them the okay under their recommendation to replace both adjusters last time, but they said I declined.

    So I'm wondering should I replace the adjusters on the other head now?
     

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