V7 C-S Suspension Thread

[timothy st.john]

My pleasure. I've combined your post with the Suspension thread referenced here.
Post your weight in street clothes, then I can make a better referral from there.
Andy above has it correct. Mupo is for the Marzocchi forks only, and the Matris Kit is for the Kaifas. I've only seen one set of Marzocchi on a '13 V7R, and that happens to be mine for the RentAGuzzi.com fleet. All others have been Kaifa, so I can't imagine that a '14 wouldn't have Kaifa.
I now have a set of take-off Kaifa's to test, but of the seat time I've spent on many that have been here at my shop, they are marginally worse then the BiTubos that come on the V7R. I have little time to take to put them on to measure, but I will if I find the time. I was hoping someone could measure them for us and post.
Again/as always, feel free to reach me via direct email for the quickest response; Todd at GuzziTech.com - or I'm often on the Live Chat feature on the Store pages.

Thanks for posting and putting me back in touch with this lost thread. As I said, I only had a vague 'sense' that someone had suggested that they had a Mupo kit for their Kaifa fork; which seemed to contradict the threads trending. A further search failed to identify one. I guess these little manufacturers can't manage sufficient commitment to support the community until their numbers grow legion in a not too distant future. I have, as you reiterate, the Kaifa fork derivitive on my 2014 Racer, which would seem to suggest that there is no other choice for me at the present time except for the Matris.

I must admit to being very curious now to find out for myself just how bad these front forks actually are, because the community really has a hate on for them. However, seen from a philosophical blind, it seems to me unlikely that MG would build to a price point that is not supported by the sophistication of its intended purchasers, because they know how to ride over there as well, if not better than we do. Additionally, they love motorcycles at least enough to build them, while we don't. It just may be that they overestimate North American willingness to experience the thrill of 'working' at, and 'winning' an exhilarating ride at lower speeds; after all, its not a sport bike. A desire to eliminate risk and pursue enjoyment through sheer speed, has caused the Japanese to engineer most of the fun out of everything (cars included) that we once took up for just that reason.

Maybe too many new Guzzi enthusiasts are comparing their new riding experience to rides on recent model (last 15 years) Japanese 'sport' bikes, rather than to the tamer offerings from those manufacturer's stables. I rode a lot of what are now classic Hondas and Kawasakis in the 70, and I have a sneaking suspicion that what many of you are calling poor handling attributes, are what I might call an invitation to low speed thrills; an intended part of the design and handling qualities that Guzzi intentionally put into what is essentially just a more mechanically reliable version of a bike from the 70's, which is still true to a 'type' (down to the low speed ride characteristics). It is however a little disconcerting that many of you seem to suggest that MG dealers can't seem to dial them in better for you. I'm going to check mine now for myself, and see how they've done. I'll report back.

As a gesture of respect to the community, I think I'll still move ahead, despite advice to 'play the ball as it lies first', and acquire the Matris fork upgrade in acknowledgment and gratitude of their collective posted opinion. Thank-you all for giving back!

Timothy St. John



PS By my experience, there is nothing more dangerous than a motorcyclist who 'flirts' with speed only occasionally. You need to shake hands with it firmly as a matter of ritual, and make regular acquaintance of it at the track. Failing in that, its no friend of yours. If you want to...need to...or have to go fast, because you bike drives you to it, go to the track. The road is not the track; ever! A different type of riding requires a different type of bike, or it just becomes boring. That's why I bought this bike. I expect it 'not' to foster a desire for speed, because every mile it reminds in one way or another, that on a motorcycle, I'm shaking hands with the devil at the best of times. Ride safe!

 

[makarushka]

I did have the MUPO kit in my Kaifa forks; it drops right in and requires no modifications. My kit came very strongly oversprung, however, and since I also wanted to obtain the external preload adjustment of the Matris fork cap, I ended up swapping the mupo kit for the Matris, which performs very well indeed. I do believe that with proper spring rates and carefully dialed in air gap the MUPO kit would offer better performance, as it is a real emulator with a shim stack, unlike the Matris' flow restrictor.

 

[timothy st.john]

I did have the MUPO kit in my Kaifa forks; it drops right in and requires no modifications. My kit came very strongly oversprung, however, and since I also wanted to obtain the external preload adjustment of the Matris fork cap, I ended up swapping the mupo kit for the Matris, which performs very well indeed. I do believe that with proper spring rates and carefully dialed in air gap the MUPO kit would offer better performance, as it is a real emulator with a shim stack, unlike the Matris' flow restrictor.

Thanks for posting! I'm gratified to learn that I hadn't got my facts wrong. Your earnest response has only confirmed my respect for this particular community of riders. I will acquire the Matris fork kit as you recommend, in respect of your recommendation. I had assumed the Mupo kit had preload adjustment so thanks for that information. But, I think I may leave the forks as they are to first advise my perspective of the state of affairs as they pertain to Guzzi'ism.

I'm determined to realize my philosophy of differential enthusiasm through deliberate interrogation of this bikes 'intended' potential (as soon as the spring returns to Vancouver that is in March). I already have an exotic british car that bores me to tears at anything like legal speeds. I don't think I could tolerate another boring mode of transport.

Timothy St. John

 

[makarushka]

I will acquire the Matris fork kit as you recommend, in respect of your recommendation. I had assumed the Mupo kit had preload adjustment so thanks for that information

Just to be clear, I did not intend to specifically recommend one kit over the other. As a matter of fact, I have a feeling that Mupo would yield better results when fine-tuned. Ideally, I wanted to have the fork cap and springs from the Matris kit combined with the Mupo emulator but my finances only allowed one or the other, so I went with the Matris in the end. It should also be said that Mupo supplies progressive springs with their kit while Matris springs are linear rate; the latter is my personal preference based on a number of fork upgrades on several bikes.

Additionally, once the preload is set, one is not very likely to need to change it, or at least change it often, and these simple forks are easy to take off and open with no special tools, so the external preload adjustment becomes somewhat of a moot point. I'll admit to a certain degree of vanity on my part in this regard; it's functional bling.

 

[timothy st.john]

Just to be clear, I did not intend to specifically recommend one kit over the other. As a matter of fact, I have a feeling that Mupo would yield better results when fine-tuned. Ideally, I wanted to have the fork cap and springs from the Matris kit combined with the Mupo emulator but my finances only allowed one or the other, so I went with the Matris in the end. It should also be said that Mupo supplies progressive springs with their kit while Matris springs are linear rate; the latter is my personal preference based on a number of fork upgrades on several bikes.

Additionally, once the preload is set, one is not very likely to need to change it, or at least change it often, and these simple forks are easy to take off and open with no special tools, so the external preload adjustment becomes somewhat of a moot point. I'll admit to a certain degree of vanity on my part in this regard; it's functional bling.

Hi everyone,

I understood both your point and the physics involved. Thank-you for having the courage to have an opinion and the intelligence to understand and explain your own preference and enthusiasms to others. I teach philosophy, and as such, I am disinclined, by both nature and experience, to indulge alchemy of any kind over simple truths (yes, all truths are simple).

Much of what has been offered in support of this thread 'is' supported by simple physics, while other offerings only play into some peoples preference for mystery and romance. That being the case, I have searched out an article that will help others of you make acquaintance with the science that directs the comments of the experts that have posted in support of this community.

(http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Suspension.html)

Thanks to them for their patience and support of the neophyte hobbyist and their penchant for what are initially healthy conditions of both brand and style prejudice and bias. The article below explains the basic mechanism's of suspension engineering that will allow newcomers to crossover to the next stage of participation, and therefore invest more wisely in their own future.

Timothy St. John

PS If there is any enthusiasm, I will post the rest of this article.

 

[GTM®]

Mark is a great guy, no doubt.

The real suspension gurus like RaceTech publish books. My friend Andrew penned this one; http://www.bullpublishing.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=103 -- it's more inline with the physics of tuning, so perhaps you'd enjoy it.

My post leading this thread is a result of my ~40 years of riding and racing (20+ years, 11 of those professionally as a dirt-tracker and road-racer, and I'm currently a paid professional precision rider for digital media and print). So, take from it what you'd like.
I try to get quickly to the point, and leave the reader with simple tangible evidence/data. Those who know me and my bikes rarely argue with the results.

 

[timothy st.john]

Mark is a great guy, no doubt.

The real suspension gurus like RaceTech publish books. My friend Andrew penned this one; http://www.bullpublishing.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=103 -- it's more inline with the physics of tuning, so perhaps you'd enjoy it.

My post leading this thread is a result of my ~40 years of riding and racing (20+ years, 11 of those professionally as a dirt-tracker and road-racer, and I'm currently a paid professional precision rider for digital media and print). So, take from it what you'd like.
I try to get quickly to the point, and leave the reader with simple tangible evidence/data. Those who know me and my bikes rarely argue with the results. Again, come ride my V7 if you'd like; RentAGuzzi.com

Thanks for that Todd. I am planning on going to look through Race Tech's offerings (though I don't think their sight supports Guzzi by name), to see if they do an emulator kit for a V7 Racer.

As you can tell from the tenor of my remarks concerning you elsewhere on this forum, you are one of the principles to which I am referring when I commend the expertise of the people who contribute productively to this forum.

Thanks also for posting your credentials (though I doubt anyone needed to see them), as your reputation speaks for you with greater legitimate authority than anyone could require.

I had wondered how you had come by your proficiency and now I know. I only wish you lived in Vancouver instead of L.A. Scratch that. I wish I lived in L.A.

Timothy St. John

P.S. Thanks also for posting the link to the suspension reference volume. I am familiar with it. From my perspective it seems elegant and very well thought out. I am inclined to doubt that its nominal challenges are beyond the enthusiasm and means of any Guzzi hobbyist. Its just not free! Highly recommended though!

 

[Big Kahuna]

I'm installing my Matris kit in my Kaifa fork right now and I'm confused.
please help me
oil level 60 mm from the top with spring in and fork EXTENDED or COLLAPSED?
I can't quite figure that part out and have read on here people saying both?

It's got to be collapsed. Otherwise i don't think I've got enough oil....
60mm from top of fork to oil with spring in place and fork collapsed. ... that's what I'm going with. .... i will know soon enough If that was right or wrong
fingers crossed

 

[timothy st.john]

Sorry for the late reply. I got caught up in Valentines Day festivities. How did your test work out? I'll double check your conclusions, but language is a funny thing, and the Italians seem to make more mistakes in translation than the Chinese.

Having said that, I'd incline towards the instructions rather than outside advice, and the philosophical principle KISS (keep it simple stupid), which would have you filll without the burden of loading the forks while you pour; who would require that you do tha? The physics is that the oil level stays the same, but changes position eventually over time to static level. The longer the fork is compressed, the more time the oiil has to refill the upper reservoir. Otherwise how long or hard would you compress? I'll check too. Many hands make light work.

Timothy St. John

 

[GTM®]

It's got to be collapsed. 60mm from top of fork to oil with spring in place and fork collapsed.

All correct.

 

[timothy st.john]

Glad it worked out! So much for philosophy (maybe its not surprising
that there are very few Italian philosophers). Nothing beats getting your hands dirty yourself though and I haven't performed this particular mod myself yet.

I'll be ordering a kit from Todd soon, so my turn is coming up. However, your experience seems to be the opposite of what I just read in the only Matris fork kit install guide I could find on line. It cautioned specifically against collapsing the fork when setting the oil level.

That's what these communities are for. Sorry to have moved your consideration in the wrong direction. Let me know how she trims out.

Timothy St. John

 

[abbienormal]

That is odd to me. Normally when i do forks it is collapsed spring out. They would have confused me also. I am thinking this is with the fork caps off so you are not fighting the spring and just the end of the spring is in oil? I think I would do this once, remove the spring, measure the oil height, and use the new measurement from that point forward.

 

[timothy st.john]

Oh! There you go. You've got a reply now with far more authority than I could offer. Thanks Todd and Rudy. I just got an education myself elsewhere on line that agrees with what you practice, but the physics isn't well presented. I suspect it has something to do with the transitional point at which the air pressure takes over the job of the spring, and the difficulty of calculating the compression of the air column at variable load. I'm pretty sure that could be calculated such that the measurement could be made without the collapsing the spring, but nobody has bothered to do the math, because there are too many variables involved.

I re-read the instruction guide I looked at, and it makes the point for language difficulty: it's intent might be suggesting that you endeavour not to 'bottom-out' the fork when collapsing it to set the oil level, rather than not to collapse it. Ludwig Wittgenstein suggested that all problems are problems of language. He's not wrong!

Timothy St. John

 

[pokeyjoe]

That is odd to me. Normally when i do forks it is collapsed spring out.

I have been told to measure with the spring out as well, however it may vary by bike. The service manual will provide the correct method and measurement.

 

[Big Kahuna]

Everything went together fine using Todds recommendations that i described previously. Let me tell you, the forks feel so good now!
the cheap and clunky feel is gone and the front end now feels like it should. Solid, reliable, predictable.
I went for a relatively mellow ride to get a feel for things. Next time out will be an aggressive ride where I can really push it through the canyons.
Thanks Todd. My V7R just keeps getting better and better!

 

[GTM®]

Thanks Todd. My V7R just keeps getting better and better!

Excellent... my pleasure. Wait until you get the rear shocks, then you'll be really thrilled.

 

[mwrenn]

Just thought I'd post a ride report here, after tweaking my forks a little. I have Marzocchi forks with the Mupo kit installed. I was using 10w oil in the forks, but still had a little too much dampening going on. For example, Inwould push the forks down hard and release. They would spring back up, but not settle back a little.
Tonight I removed them, drained, disassembled and cleaned them out. I serviced them collapsed, no spring, to 140mm from the top. I wanted lighter dampening, so I used Motorex 2.5 weight oil. I could tell an immediate difference in the dampening. With the lighter oil I could push down, release, and now it springs back up then settles back down about 5 to 7 mm.
When I first installed the Mupo kit, it made a huge difference in the bike, putting in the lighter oil made about the same amount of improvement again.
I rode down my washboard dirt road at 50 mph, and the instruments never jiggled, the forks soaked up every bump.
I am really happy with it now, and I thought it was good before!
I am not sure how it will do in sharp curves, that is what I need to determine next.
Thanks to Todd for having these kits available and doing all the research. It resulted in a big improvement in my bike.
Cheers

 

[timothy st.john]

Thanks for posting! I very much appreciate the act of sharing your experiences. We're all better for it. Let us know how your bike handles cornering.

 

[GTM®]

Just thought I'd post a ride report here, after tweaking my forks a little. I have Marzocchi forks with the Mupo kit installed. I was using 10w oil in the forks, but still had a little too much dampening going on. I wanted lighter dampening, so I used Motorex 2.5 weight oil. I could tell an immediate difference in the dampening. Thanks to Todd for having these kits available and doing all the research. It resulted in a big improvement in my bike.

My pleasure, thanks to those who have purchased. It makes my huge investment seem worthwhile.
Oil is very air temp dependent. Since you're in Aviation, you'll get the gist of it. Note what air temps you're riding in now for us. I used 10w, and here in SoCal, it's pretty perfect, but so is our OAT's that hover in the 65-80ºF.

 

[mwrenn]

My pleasure, thanks to those who have purchased. It makes my huge investment seem worthwhile.
Oil is very air temp dependent. Since you're in Aviation, you'll get the gist of it. Note what air temps you're riding in now for us. I used 10w, and here in SoCal, it's pretty perfect, but so is our OAT's that hover in the 65-80ºF.

Good point, riding last night OAT was -3 C, pretty darn cold. It will be interesting to see how the dampening changes as Summer approaches. Might have to keep increasing viscosity to maintain the ride.