Cheshire cat grins and crocodile tears: Vendor blues

[timothy st.john]

Hello all,

Let me start out by saying that, although I have not yet had any business dealings with Todd, the overwhelming evidence is that he, as both a product and service provider, is an exception to the rule I am about to state. As a result, I will be pursuing a purchase with him in the near future; one that both a local provider and the manufacturer (who was happy to undercut his dealer network) failed to settle with me for lacking the integrity, forthrightness, and honesty to win my business and future patronage. That being said...

I am fast tiring of having to pretend that everybody in business (including industry favourites), who pretends camaraderie to me (for profit) instead of providing actual service, is a nice guy; just to create a feel good network. Why do so many people today think that they are receiving good 'service' these days, when in fact they are getting jerked around; albeit very politely. Just because someone offers you bad service with a smile and an apology, it doesn't mean that they couldn't have offered you good service. They simply chose not to, because its cheaper, or too much hassle for them to do otherwise. If sufficient people demanded it, they would eventually change. There's no place like home! There's no place like home! There's no place...

What if vendors actually carried stock themselves (what is the cost of being in business in real terms these days anyway), as vendors once did when customers demanded it? I had an idea for a big building, that was full of stuff that people wanted. People could go there and actually look at products, and then, for paying a premium over cost that was sufficient enough to make it worth the vendors while, the buyer could actually walk out of the door with the merchandise right there and then. What do you think! I was going to call them, 'Big-selly-places'. Catchy, eh?

Why can't vendors reply in a timely way, while actually answering the questions you put to them. Taking your money before apologizing to you that they don't actually have stock, so you do go elsewhere, is no service at all. Promising to notify you when its ready to ship in 6-8 weeks, isn't good service; its admission of bad service. What part of that don't people get any more? Those of you whose station in life, or egos are better compensated by Cheshire cat grins and crocodile tears are making it impossible for people like me to cut through that to get actual service (in terms of an honest calendar or honest economy).

I have recently had experience of one vendor who expected me to understand why he charged me more on my credit card, because he forgot to take the sale price off his website. He offered me free shipping in compensation, until I pointed out the shipping on his site was free on items over a certain dollar value anyway. I had my money refunded. Another, contacted me to beg forgiveness and allowance, because the price he used to undercut his competition wasn't possible, given the currency exchange; he hadn't put the order in until weeks after I paid him. I had that money refunded too. I don't know how many others don't understand their product lines, don't answer their emails, or fail to answer the question that are necessary to service the sale. On the plus side, apparently they are all my friends; as long, that is, as I don't try to claim anything against that friendship.

I will happily pay a premium to anyone who will offer me 'real' honest service. But it seems that manufacturers now play the same tricks on wholesalers and retailers, that they in turn play on us. Hows that for poetic justice. That being the case, everyone simply passes the buck 'up' the line. Lets just be grateful to Todd for the service that he offers. In closing, I have recently been told by my provider that Zard Italy gears down in December, and eventually closes down for 3 weeks over Christmas. Then they start processing orders, in the Italian way, mid-January, and eventually get up and running as the month closes. They have been a Zard dealer for years, but neglected to tell me this when they wanted my Christmas money. My slip-on exhausts, which were ordered on December 6, will apparently ship from Italy on February 15. I'll probably not see them until mid-March. Thats ridiculous! Somebody is not dealing in good faith, and its never me.

Timothy St. John

P.S. Todd. Your turn is coming. All I need is the honesty, transparency, and integrity that you are known for; everything else is optional.

 

[Android]

Hi Tim , your experience with italy is quite common, I ordered a new crankshaft from Moto Guzzi through my main dealer who told me their system could "see" they had one in stock.....2 months later ....oh sorry sir they don't have one ....are you willing to wait while they make one?

My brother runs a building maintenance firm and the Italian air conditioners he finds at customer premises have to be warned ....parts take a long time

 

[pokeyjoe]

The exception to the Italians that I have found is Agostini. I ordered some slip-ons from them and had them four days later. That's faster than I can get anything in the US. I struggled with their website and sent them an email. They replied promptly and I placed my order that way. I had a question or two after I got the mufflers and they were answered promptly. There are some good vendors out there (and Todd is one of them).

 

[timothy st.john]

Thanks for replying Ursula.

Sometimes it takes more than style for me. I didn't think my situation was unique with regards to the Italians, but I still wonder why buyers place the bar so low for vendors. If we don't insist, you can't blame them for trying to minimize outlay, and maximize profit. LA types have Todd to rely on, but the rest of us are lamentably served by indifference once our bikes are paid for.

I fully agree with both points John. Agostini was really efficient to deal with. They made every possible effort, and offered me a price including delivery that was much cheaper than buying from a vendor here. I'm not happy when manufacturers do that, because it undercuts local service providers; who I personally would rather overpay to win convenience of them.

I even reported that to Zard, LaFranconni, and a few others, hoping it would get them moving, but it had no effect. If I had known what to expect from Zard I would have had Agostini like so many others. Sometimes ignorance is a truer course to...invention; or rather, lack of convention.

Timothy St. John

 

[GTM®]

My minimal input to this posting is that I too fight this with the manufacturers. I just turned GuzziTech into a small business in July of last year, and I'm still a one man operation with very minimal inventory. I cannot afford to stock things in which I might sell one or two a year. It makes zero business sense. Buying discounted items for Guzzi is tough business since there is near no volume, even with the V7 line which is their top seller in North America. As is it takes me a few years to recoup my developmental costs on everything I offer here.

The only thing I offer that the others likely don't, is promptness to questions here and direct email with integrity... best I can.

 

[abbienormal]

When I finally got the ok on the warranty on my trunk (first asked in October, authorized in early February) I was told the inventory said 2 in stock. This was not the dealer but the service rep from Guzzi. He also said he did not have a lot of faith in their inventory count but if it was there it would be shipped and I would see it in about a week. That would be about 2 weeks ago. I'm starting to lean towards it wasn't there! Still hoping just slow shipping.
Having worked 20 years in a motorcycle shop (Honda) I know there is no way to stock everything so you hope your supplier does. Up until around 1990 Honda would get you every part for every model. They changed to the only for so many years back model around then. They claimed they still had a few years supply of older stuff but within a year I started seeing "not available". The killer is a few years earlier they convinced the owners to have me pitch any old parts from stock and I threw out $36,000 in 1986 dollars, worth of perfectly good parts that I could eBay for a small fortune today.

 

[timothy st.john]

My minimal input to this posting is that I too fight this with the manufacturers. I just turned GuzziTech into a small business in July of last year, and I'm still a one man operation with very minimal inventory. I cannot afford to stock things in which I might sell one or two a year. It makes zero business sense. Buying discounted items for Guzzi is tough business since there is near no volume, even with the V7 line which is their top seller in North America. As is it takes me a few years sot recoup my developmental costs on everything I offer here.

The only thing I offer that the others likely don't is promptness to questions here and direct email with integrity best I can.

Hi Todd,

Posting that honest business profile is the first step to securing my business. I now know what I can expect. Unrealistic expectations are the cause of all of life's dissapoinments.

We all of us too often make the mistake of assuming that people know our history (and qulifications) beyond their ability to do so; and then stand trial in confusion of our failure to fathom people's reaction (or lack thereof) to us.

I had no idea the vendor portion of your business was a relatively new enterprise. I'm all the keener to support you as a result.

Timothy St.John

 

[mwrenn]

Hi Todd,

Posting that honest business profile is the first step to securing my business. I now know what I can expect. Unrealistic expectations are the cause of all of life's dissapoinments.

We all of us too often make the mistake of assuming that people know our history (and qulifications) beyond their ability to do so; and then stand trial in confusion of our failure to fathom people's reaction (or lack thereof) to us.

I had no idea the vendor portion of your business was a relatively new enterprise. I'm all the keener to support you as a result.

Timothy St.John

I too feel that the idea of customer service has become more of a statement to engender sales, than an actual management policy as we consumers are led to believe. It is a sad state of affairs when I call a vendor to order parts for my business, and I have to maintain a healthy skepticism when I am dealing with the sales people. Another layer to this onion is my vendors dealing with core returns and then conveniently forgetting to credit me for them. This practice simply creates extra work for me, as I have to constantly monitor my core transactions for proper credit.
Unfortunately I have no simple solution for this phenomenon. The only thing I can do is select vendors I trust, and deal with them exclusively.
I feel very fortunate to have vendors such as Todd, that have accomplished real world testing of the products being offered for retail. To me this is an invaluable resource for all Guzzi aficionados.

 

[timothy st.john]

I too feel that the idea of customer service has become more of a statement to engender sales, than an actual management policy as we consumers are led to believe. It is a sad state of affairs when I call a vendor to order parts for my business, and I have to maintain a healthy skepticism when I am dealing with the sales people. Another layer to this onion is my vendors dealing with core returns and then conveniently forgetting to credit me for them. This practice simply creates extra work for me, as I have to constantly monitor my core transactions for proper credit.
Unfortunately I have no simple solution for this phenomenon. The only thing I can do is select vendors I trust, and deal with them exclusively.
I feel very fortunate to have vendors such as Todd, that have accomplished real world testing of the products being offered for retail. To me this is an invaluable resource for all Guzzi aficionados.

Thanks for posting mwrenn.

We all stand to profit in service by Todd's vocational success. I propose that we endeavour to get him to commit to an even broader business plan by supporting his curiosity for this end of the business. What do you think Todd? Who knows where it could lead. Todd's Vancouver Guzzi!

I fear that its actually worse than we suspect though. I have a friend who does business with large, American firms, and prestigious institutions like the Smithsonian, and he tells me that where once he could expect payment comfortably within his 90 day term, it now takes as long a 6 months to actively badger satisfaction out of his clients.

Worse still, these days they come back at him to tell him that it is a privilege to 'be a friend' of their organization, and that he should manage greater professional patience. Six months later, and thats their take on their dereliction of payment. The irony is staggering.

Timothy St. John

 

[timothy st.john]

Thanks for posting mwrenn.

We all stand to profit in service by Todd's vocational success. I propose that we endeavour to get him to commit to an even broader business plan by supporting his curiosity for this end of the business. What do you think Todd? Who knows where it could lead. Todd's Vancouver Guzzi!

I fear that its actually worse than we suspect though. I have a friend who does business with large, American firms, and prestigious institutions like the Smithsonian, and he tells me that where once he could expect payment comfortably within his 90 day term, it now takes as long a 6 months to actively badger satisfaction out of his clients.

Worse still, these days they come back at him to tell him that it is a privilege to 'be a friend' of their organization, and that he should manage greater professional patience. Six months later, and thats their take on their dereliction of payment. The irony is staggering.

Timothy St. John

Hi everyone,

I thought I would just venture an update on this thread before it expires for lack of interest. However, I am cautious about the mechanism for advancing it productively here. Other forums permit or encourage calling out suppliers, manufacturers and retailers on their poor business practices (with or without rants), but this site seems (and I underscore seems, for further interrogation may prove that this sight does in fact have teeth elsewhere) to be extremely...politically correct. Maybe it was not always the case, but everyone seems to be a 'friend' of the forum, the sport, our brand, and a nice guy to boot; but to what end or profit for users of this forum, I don't know.

As you know, I have complained earlier in this thread about vendors who politely provide what can only be called terrible service. But on this sight such deals are entered into evidence as, 'It took forever [but I had lots of other things to do while I waited], and they sent me the wrong part [they were very nice about returning it, after they explained to me that the confusion was my fault}. Yes, it cost me a fortune, but, [lol]...the service more than made up for it [because he called me buddy, and told me that my ostensibly stock bike (which looks identical to everyone else's), looks great!] . I would definately recommend my good friends at Stupid Motosport." Really!!!!!! Vendors have realized that It costs nothing to feign friendship; I propose instead that it cost only a little more to actually provide it. If all of them go out of business, I'll find another hobby (my Guzzi vendor currently has no mechanic).

I also complained about companies who solicit e-business, but don't respond correctly, promptly or at all to email inquiries. So here is my point. I have recently sent out several very cordial missives to vendors, suppliers and retailers, many of whom are promoted routinely in this forum. The language in each was simple and direct: a greeting, followed by a one sentence inquiry, and a premature thank-you. Then I wait. Several of these never received replies, even upon repeated submission. Here then is the problem: these businesses are routinely written up in this forum as being, professional, ethical, material or service providers. I want to ask about your experiences, because I sometimes doubt the reliability of 'my' email submissions and returns (though not enough to account for my recent experience). Can't we 'out' these companies, to help the sport back from the brink of extinction while there is still time?

I teach that the one person in this world we are not responsible for is ourselves, Yes, that's correct. Living communally as we do, we each consciously and unconsciously look to others for corroboration that our behaviour is acceptable. In absence of active discouragement, we deduce that our behaviour is deemed acceptable. That being the case, commending one individual for doing something right (politically correct), is not the same as discouraging someone from doing something wrong. The latter requires synthesis; a process of adjudication not employed in the form of reason that is know as simple common sense; which is the variety of inquiry promoted to sufficiency in popular culture. Given this, most individuals simply assume that there is more than one way to behave, and that their form of 'incorrect behaviour' is just such a way as these others; different, but not wrong.

Ethics are 'right action' born of inner virtue, while morals are right action in accordance with an external rule of law; which requires formal policing. But in absence of 'formal' policing, most individuals will turn a blind eye to the law for immediate personal profit. So, morals, as a method to personal quality, run into defect and dereliction. However, tempered to it, the virtuous individual can never escape the vigilance of their own policing. Their quality will not allow them to do wrong. That being the case, who is providing informal external community policing in a politically correct citizenry. In absence of legal intervention, immorality propagates (as it pertains to the penal code), because political correctness teacher the average 'joe' that its not his place to comment. That couldn't be further form the truth.

There is a solution, in this age of the internet, to bad service; and this forum, I would suggest, has a ethical obligation to provide it. All this by way of asking whether members of this forum want to read into the lists of this sight the names of companies and individuals that don't return good service to profit one another's pursuit of the hobby. By experience of this forum, they will surely be someone's friends, so you'd better be sure. Please advise.

Timothy St. John

 

[roadventure]

There is a sketch that started on Saturday Night Live in 1975 called WEEKEND UPDATE. One part of this sketch was called "Point, Counter-Point" in which Jane Curtin and Chevy Chase faced off on a recent issue in the news. It is, of course, a comedy routine and one that I had always enjoyed. A line used by Chevy Chase is one of my favorites and one I that am going to use now. Please accept this in the spirit in which it is intended.

Timothy, you ignorant slut!,

I understand that it might irritate you to get what you consider to be bad service. I am much the same as you in that respect. However, here, on the "interweb" it is not uncommon for people to exaggerate and blow off steam at the drop of a hat. Maybe it has to do with the relative anonymity that most of us have on the internet. And since there are usually three sides to every story (your side, my side and the truth) what anyone might state here, or anyplace else on the internet, has to be subject to interpretation by the reader.

Here on the internet I can not hear your words and the inflection used. Here on the internet I can not see you and your body postures of facial expressions. This is a huge disadvantage in communication in such a rapid-fire place where we are all anonymous.

Okay, so saying someone has done a good job is opinion. It is subjective. Likewise saying someone has done a poor job is also opinion as we all have different standards. This is also subjective.

And, sometimes, "politically correct" is nothing more than being polite.

 

[mwrenn]

I think that a single email and waiting for a response might not be a comprehensive way to judge a vendor. A more accurate way would be to make a purchase and report on each individual transaction. the risk of making faulty generalizations about a vendor, or individual, or group of individuals is too great otherwise.
We all have the ability to create whatever reality we want for ourselves.

 

[contractor20]

I thought I would just venture an update on this thread before it expires for lack of interest.

Tim some rants dont really need replying to

 

[ghezzi]

Its all part of the political bullshit that governs big business, see, if you are a little business nobody in big business will look at you.
Some years ago in this country, somebody invented "Quality Assurance Standard 98210" or whatever. What it meant was that if you wanted to supply goods or services to any Govt. organization/dept etc. you had to qualify. Actually, every office of every Govt. dept also had to qualify. So collectively this country spent billions of dollars on holding meetings, ticking boxes, and hanging wall plaques all for a bullshit standard, that nobody operates to anyway.

Todd and I are in the same boat as one man operations, if we want to deal with the big boys they just look down their noses and scoff at the losers. I say "fuck 'em".

 

[timothy st.john]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for replying, I guess this thread had gone as far as it is going. I maintain that good 'retail' service can only be said to have been enjoyed when you receive both reply and product in a timely fashion, and delivery at the price (including shipping) agreed upon, without fuss, or complication.

Politeness is a civility born of ease and privilege of situation, which is based upon language proficiency and social practice. It is not necessarily practised (or thought necessary) or required by social obligation in certain cultures or classes, under certain conditions. So, it can not be said to be an actual part of good retail service; not at least in a global economy.

I have a friend in Beverley Hills who is a Plastic Surgeon from a different culture. By evidence of his reputation and his results, he is undoubtedly one of the most skilled aesthetic surgeons practicing. And yet, people regularly turn instead to one his less skilled colleagues (and live to regret it) to get their work done, simply because my friend wasn't very...friendly during their consultation. What are they paying for?

Timothy St. John