tick tick tick

[Chadlebowski]

My 09 Stelvio has developed a rhythmic ticking, in three's (sounds very similar to the clutch at neutral), at low-revs.It speeds up on acceleration, but is gone over 3000RPM. Doesn't seem massively affected by the temperature of the engine and is sometimes present at neutral, sometimes not.

Bike has around 18,000 miles on the clock; valves have been checked under 200mi ago (thought the noise was related; exhaust valves were a bit too open, but the noise is back). Engine is on flat tappets.

I've read that no noise is a bad thing, and that earplugs are best worn when diagnosing Guzzi noises. Am I worrying unnecessarily, or is there something else I could check, or is this standard, ie will develop over time and is normal

 

[Brian UK]

Use a screwdriver stethoscope. Handle against your ear, blade on various parts of the engine. You should be able to localise the noise.

 

[skorpion]

Had something similar with my first 1200 Sport 2 valve on its first long run (750 Ks). Turned out to be a loose nut on the crankshaft alternator belt pulley.

 

[MotoG5]

My 09 Stelvio has developed a rhythmic ticking, in three's (sounds very similar to the clutch at neutral), at low-revs.It speeds up on acceleration, but is gone over 3000RPM. Doesn't seem massively affected by the temperature of the engine and is sometimes present at neutral, sometimes not.

Bike has around 18,000 miles on the clock; valves have been checked under 200mi ago (thought the noise was related; exhaust valves were a bit too open, but the noise is back). Engine is on flat tappets.

I've read that no noise is a bad thing, and that earplugs are best worn when diagnosing Guzzi noises. Am I worrying unnecessarily, or is there something else I could check, or is this standard, ie will develop over time and is normal

Hello Chadlebowski
Chances are very good that you are experiencing the early signs of tappet failure. In my opinion you should open up your heads and check the condition of your tappets. I did this with my flat tappet engine at 16k with no indication of any problems and found that my flat tappets were indeed failing. I took pics of the condition sent them to my dealer and was provided with the roller tappet conversion kit form MG and installed it. My bike being a 2012 used the B Kit but in your case with an 09' it will most likely be the C kit and will require pulling the heads and shimming the valves. Unless your bike was upgraded at some point with the DLC coated tappets by a dealer or previous owner it will need the C Kit. If it was done then the B Kit will do. No matter please don't ignore at least looking at the tappets because if they are going out it will kill your engine. Guzzi at this point is providing the upgrade kits for the older bikes but will not cover the cost of installation. This is what I found at 16k miles with no indication of problems like opening up of the valve clearances between checks and additional valve noise.
Note the wear of the DLC coating on the tappet faces and the heat discoloration starting on cam lobe. If left to go metal to metal contact will happen and major damage will result with metal particles being shed into the engine. This happens very fast once it starts.

 

[canuck1969]

. My bike being a 2012 used the B Kit but in your case with an 09' it will most likely be the C kit and will require pulling the heads and shimming the valves.

Total hijack here but I thought all 2012 stelvios took the A kit since it has a floating valve cover. Was your bike different than the pictures above..

 

[MotoG5]

View attachment 9620 View attachment 9621

Total hijack here but I thought all 2012 stelvios took the A kit since it has a floating valve cover. Was your bike different than the pictures above..

Oh crap, did it again! No hijack that I can see. Thanks for the correction. There is a long story behind my mistake. The dealer got caught up in it too until the notice from MG showed up. Lets just say there was some mailing back and forth involved. I am not even sure about the C kit for the 09' now that I see the chart again. I should of pulled out the copy I have, if I could have found it. Any way thanks again for jumping in with the correct info. I need to watch posting in the middle of the night.

 

[Chadlebowski]

Don't mean to interrupt the hijack but.....

Booked the bike into the garage for an inspection; might be time for roller conversion. Also, after spending some time on this forum, could the noise be an exhaust leak? I have noticed that when the bike is started on cold days, there is vapour coming from the underside of the bike as well.

 

[Lannis]

My 09 Stelvio has developed a rhythmic ticking, in three's (sounds very similar to the clutch at neutral), at low-revs.It speeds up on acceleration, but is gone over 3000RPM. Doesn't seem massively affected by the temperature of the engine and is sometimes present at neutral, sometimes not.

Bike has around 18,000 miles on the clock; valves have been checked under 200mi ago (thought the noise was related; exhaust valves were a bit too open, but the noise is back). Engine is on flat tappets.

I've read that no noise is a bad thing, and that earplugs are best worn when diagnosing Guzzi noises. Am I worrying unnecessarily, or is there something else I could check, or is this standard, ie will develop over time and is normal

My 2009 Stelvio tick-tick-ticked from about 10,000 miles to 38,000 miles, mostly from the left side, and most noticeable when cold, but present all the time. Valves always were in adjustment. I assume that it was from the "end float" on the rockers - they have about .010" side-to-side play. Engine always ran great, nice and smooth.

At 38,000 miles, I sent my bike into the shop last month for the flat-tappet check. Timely move - tappets were discolored but no surface material missing, they would have probably run for a while longer. The shop is for the last 4 weeks negotiating with Piaggio/Guzzi for the "C" kit to convert to rollers, in such as way as to convince me that Piaggio's aim in life is to (A) be as dishonest about the situation as they can (B) invoke "Plausible Deniability" for any liability even though the very cats in the street know that they screwed it up and (C) P!ss off their loyal customers of new bikes as far as humanly possible. This has every sign of a company being run by green-eye-shade accountants.

In the meantime, to make sure I have a transcontinental motorcycle to ride this spring, my wife and I have bought a new Triumph Trophy Triple SE sport-tourer. We'll see what do to with the Stelvio if/when it comes back from the shop sometime this year .....

Lannis

 

[WayneOrwig]

I am not even sure about the C kit for the 09' now that I see the chart again. I should of pulled out the copy I have, if I could have found it. Any way thanks again for jumping in with the correct info. I need to watch posting in the middle of the night.

The 09 is almost sure to use kit C. There is a drill/paint make on the side of the head which determines kit B from C. No mark, kit C. With the mark, kit B. The extra shimming needed for kit C takes a lot of time and expensive gaskets.

 

[WayneOrwig]

Booked the bike into the garage for an inspection; might be time for roller conversion. Also, after spending some time on this forum, could the noise be an exhaust leak? I have noticed that when the bike is started on cold days, there is vapour coming from the underside of the bike as well.

Yes, it may be an exhaust leak.
Still try hard to get the roller conversion ASAP.

 

[WayneOrwig]

At 38,000 miles, I sent my bike into the shop last month for the flat-tappet check. Timely move - tappets were discolored but no surface material missing, they would have probably run for a while longer. The shop is for the last 4 weeks negotiating with Piaggio/Guzzi for the "C" kit to convert to rollers, in such as way as to convince me that Piaggio's aim in life is to (A) be as dishonest about the situation as they can (B) invoke "Plausible Deniability" for any liability even though the very cats in the street know that they screwed it up and (C) P!ss off their loyal customers of new bikes as far as humanly possible. This has every sign of a company being run by green-eye-shade accountants.

In the meantime, to make sure I have a transcontinental motorcycle to ride this spring, my wife and I have bought a new Triumph Trophy Triple SE sport-tourer. We'll see what do to with the Stelvio if/when it comes back from the shop sometime this year .....

I was going to use my Stelvio more and more as a two up long distance vehicle. Instead, I am back to using my EV with 120,000 mile on it.

And Piaggio wonders why we stick with the 'old' stuff and shun the new. They need to clean up this situation as fast as they can and move on.

You like the Brit bikes anyway....

 

[Chadlebowski]

Just by ways of explaining... Wouldn't early on-set tappet failure show constant symptoms? I.e. why would the click go away over 3000rpm, and not get worse and worse with higher revs? And why would the noise be there sometimes and others not, when the bike is either hot or cold?

 

[MotoG5]

Just by ways of explaining... Wouldn't early on-set tappet failure show constant symptoms? I.e. why would the click go away over 3000rpm, and not get worse and worse with higher revs? And why would the noise be there sometimes and others not, when the bike is either hot or cold?

Not necessarily. Some bikes like mine never made any noise over 16K miles and had no indication of an issue but when I finally got paranoid enough and looked the failure had started. Some make noise and start running poorly. Others give no indication and go out suddenly and catastrophically. Some have gone as early as 6K miles and others at over 50K. There is as yet no explanation as to why this is happening and as to why it occurs so randomly across the mileage range. The only thing I am convinced of is that it will happen at some point to any flat tappet 8V engine. And it is best to just go ahead and get them rollered as soon as one can. Your ticking noise may or may not be related but any sound coming from the head area on one of the flatty's would be a reason to take a look. The good thing here is that Piaggio requires for the free parts that there was some reason to open up the bike and pull the cam boxes and inspect. Your situation is that reason so if damage is found your dealer can make a successful claim for the kit. I am betting you will find something. I have not heard of a credible case where the tappets were found to be in excellent condition.

 

[WayneOrwig]

Just by ways of explaining... Wouldn't early on-set tappet failure show constant symptoms? I.e. why would the click go away over 3000rpm, and not get worse and worse with higher revs? And why would the noise be there sometimes and others not, when the bike is either hot or cold?

Mine has so much other top end noise, I never noticed mine chewing up a tappet.

The early models did not have the cam shaft end float shimmed. So they rattle around a lot normally. A little extra ticking isn't noticed.

 

[Chadlebowski]

Diagnostic update: Local dealer doesn't feel the noise is tappet related, and that it sounds more likely to be a gearbox or balancing issue. The noise did seem to move from the RH cylinder to the LH cylinder, so I tend to agree. However, they did mention that the chatter settles once the clutch is pulled in, but I thought the chatter was normal.
I asked and asked again if they thought the tappets were on the way out, and they said they seemed ok. So if I take the valve covers off, what should I be looking for exactly?
Lastly, however, and most frustratingly, the caps that hold the spark boots were scratched while the garage were checking the bike. I'm usually one to just let these things lie, but I made a point of mentioning it to the assistant dealing with me. He basically said that they were a very reputable dealership and would own up to any damage. He went on to say that it looked like knee-rubbing (idiot!), and that he wasn't going to accept that his tech damaged the bike. It was plain as day that they'd gone at the logo'd screw caps with a screwdriver (and I'd know as I've been opening them a few times a month...). So I told him that he'd lost a customer. I'll take it elsewhere for a second opinion.

 

[Lannis]

I was going to use my Stelvio more and more as a two up long distance vehicle. Instead, I am back to using my EV with 120,000 mile on it.

And Piaggio wonders why we stick with the 'old' stuff and shun the new. They need to clean up this situation as fast as they can and move on.

You like the Brit bikes anyway....

The Stelvio WHEN IT'S ON THE ROAD is a perfect two-up touring bike for Fay and I. To be honest, when we were at the Triumph/Guzzi shop trying to figure out with the service manager how to get the Stelvio fixed and not have the full $2500 or so bill land on my head, she got a bit cheesed off with the way Piaggio/Guzzi was doing us, and started wandering around the shop, and landed on a Pacific Blue Triumph 1200. I had NO notion, being newly retired on a fixed income and watching my pennies, of buying a brand new sport tourer, but she'd had enough and she talked me into it, so I wrote the check. I also turned over my original Stelvio warranty book to the shop as ammunition to fight Piaggio, although the shop I bought the Stelvio from went of out business (as did the previous 7 Virginia Moto Guzzi dealers), so there's only two services logged, I did the rest myself.... We'll see how it all comes out. I need it back by May 1, as I have some friends coming from England who want to tour America with us, they'll use the Stelvio, Fay and I will use the Triumph, so Fay and I are going to be out on the Triumph today trying to get some break-in miles on it before the snow comes back ....

Lannis

 

[MotoG5]

Diagnostic update: Local dealer doesn't feel the noise is tappet related, and that it sounds more likely to be a gearbox or balancing issue. The noise did seem to move from the RH cylinder to the LH cylinder, so I tend to agree. However, they did mention that the chatter settles once the clutch is pulled in, but I thought the chatter was normal.
I asked and asked again if they thought the tappets were on the way out, and they said they seemed ok. So if I take the valve covers off, what should I be looking for exactly?
Lastly, however, and most frustratingly, the caps that hold the spark boots were scratched while the garage were checking the bike. I'm usually one to just let these things lie, but I made a point of mentioning it to the assistant dealing with me. He basically said that they were a very reputable dealership and would own up to any damage. He went on to say that it looked like knee-rubbing (idiot!), and that he wasn't going to accept that his tech damaged the bike. It was plain as day that they'd gone at the logo'd screw caps with a screwdriver (and I'd know as I've been opening them a few times a month...). So I told him that he'd lost a customer. I'll take it elsewhere for a second opinion.

Sounds like you would want someone else doing the tappet check. More bad news on the tappet story is that in order to check the condition of the tappets you will have to pull the cam boxes to do this. Its not a complicated job but there are a few things you need to know about to do it. At the point you have done this it is easy to go ahead and install the updated roller boxes. Unless you do this yourself tell the dealer you want pictures of the tappet faces and cam lobes. This is very important if they tell you the tappets are in good condition. Any missing DLC is unacceptable and the same with any indication of heat discoloration on the cam lobes. Most dealers charge to pull the cam boxes so there will be a cost for this. Like I have said before I am betting that if you do have it done you will be making a claim for rollers. The noise you have been hearing may indeed not be your tappets but the issue is a real one and should be checked for while Guzzi is still providing replacement kits. Just my opinion of course but I am very glad that I checked.

 

[canuck1969]

As Moto said, you will need to remove the cam boxes if you want to inspect the tappets. Only have to remove the one side (do the left side as you can do it without removing the tank) If there is wear on the cams and tappets (which will be obvious), take pictures and try and get your dealer to submit a claim. It will be like jumping through hoops but may be easier with yours if the issue is actually the soft cams which were an issue with your year as opposed to the DLC coated tappets. That is a different claim but the fix is the same which is rollerization of the tappets.

I have attached a PDF of a procedure that was detailed on another site. I used it to remove the boxes on my 2012 for inspection. Wear was not bad but there was some DLC coating removal. Still submitted a claim none the less. Been waiting to hear back since October and been jumping through hoops since then. It will be easier for the claim if the dealer does it, but based on your experience with the dealer, may want to do it yourself, or find another dealer in the area.

Is it more like a ticking sound or a clatter? The gearbox will clatter.

Normal tappets will tick every so often as they spin on the base. Will usually get a cyclic tick that goes away and comes back at idle. Goes away at higher revs also. That is normal, as is the clattering of the gearbox when the bike is in neutral and the clutch lever released. It is the gears moving around on the input shaft from the pulses of the engine. If you pull the clutch in, or rev the engine above 3K or so and the clatter goes away then you have normal gearbox rattle.

If you are hearing a consistent tapping or clunking sound then that is your tappets/cams. Will get louder as the revs go up. More of a thud, than a tick. It is pretty noticeable when it gets bad enough.

If you can record the sound somehow then we could give it a listen, but from the sounds of it (no pun intended), sounds like normal Guzzi sounds that are easily fixed by ear plugs.

 

[SullZ]

If you have 8V flats. Pull cam box. Check them yourself. Eliminate the wonderment if they are OK or not. 99.9% they will show sign of wearing. My 2012 Norge, had 6180 miles on it. Well cared for and ridden in the twisties of Southern Calif. I ordered Kit A and replaced them myself with the help of the PDF Rollerization file posted above by "Canuck 1969". You can read , read and read about the situation, but you won't set your mind at ease until you just do it. Then all is well. Runs just as good if not better. Different sound for sure. Now on to lubing the swing arm.

 

[Chadlebowski]

Took bike to two mechanics yesterday. The first identified the clicking noise as a slack cam chain. The second suggested that it may be something more severe.

After riding for a few minutes the bike started making a penny-rattling-in-a-tin-can sound (as it has done on occasion over the past month or so.) This isn't constant, and wasn't present this morning. I rode approximately 100mi yesterday, with noises coming and going, and no other symptoms.

The strange thing is that sometimes the noise seems to be coming from the right, sometimes from the left. I will change the oil and check the clearances this weekend. Then do TPS etc as well. I've recorded the sound, but can't seem to upload them here.