4V recall info - READ

[Gary]

No special schools, and I dont let him on the porn sites either.
This was Pete just personally insulting Italians, just 'cause he can.
I remember someone saying that was the only thing not allowed on here.........one rule for one eh?

 

[GrahamNZ]

RacerX
Thanks for your clarification. I had missed the issue because I don't read many threads that don't really interest me. The local dealer had his demo 4V Griso suffer a top-end failure but wouldn't tell me what the cause was.

As for us all going to Honda, I recall the early V-fours suffering from cam gear failures.............No one is immune to failures. What is of most importance is that if they occur they are remedied promptly and successfully.

For various reasons, including bike weight, I'm unlikely to buy another Guzzi, let alone a 4V model, but given the resale values I'll probably have my Breva forever. Still, it looks so lovely that even if I can no longer ride it I will still enjoy seeing it in the garage.

Graham

 

[Mike.C]

You know they really are being stupid - they have sold at least one Stelvio simply because I posted an explanation of the truth about the 8V cams on ADVRider, and the bloke was about to pull the plug on the deal and the dealer didn't know about the fix until he told him about it after reading my post, it was the fix that saved the deal for Guzzi and without the internet info system they would have lost the sale to BMW :S . There was a lot of missinformation and inuendo going around on ADVRider about 8V Guzzis and it wasn't pretty.

Problem is I recon, that like most things Italian, it's the home grown Italian market that is their biggest sales generator, so other markets just aren't that important to them and so they don't reeally understand what goes on.

 

[NeroGuzzi]

I wouldn't put a whole lot of credence in this letter. It reads like an emotional letter from someone at Piaggio that has been busy chasing his tail trying to rectify the 4v issue. Note that Luca threatened to refer the matter to Piaggio lawyers. In other words, this letter wasn't initiated by the lawyers.

On a much brighter note, it's great to see Pete Roper posting again. I hope the time between postings shortens.

 

[toddhaven]

Sorry, been out of the loop for a while.

The idea that Piaggio finds this the most pressing issue on their plate, after having ignored the California fork stem issue for 1.5 years
is laughable.
The one-way street involved in the corporate mentality is reprehensible.
Disregard of the experienced, trusted, field-tested professionals is unconscionable.

Our e-mails work, our phones work.
I can reach Pete or Greg in a short time frame quite easily. Both have been quite responsive to any questions or musings.
We(me, Greg, Pete, to name a few, if I may be so bold) help people cities, states, and continents away, for little or no economic reward. Is it that hard to pick up the phone, in order to talk to the people who are in theory your "partners in profitability"?

 

[cheese]

It's amazing to me that Guzzi sells any bikes here considering their evident lack of attention to the U.S. market. Hard to determine where the fault is. I respectfully bent the ear of the floor rep at the NY bike show several years ago only to be dismissed with an off hand remark. Perhaps his Italian employers ignored him if / when he passed along reports of such conversations? Maybe his salary wasn't based on new unit sales? With the extreme level of enthusiasm displayed by Guzzisti here and in other venues I've visited, it appears to me sales could be improved with a minimum of effort from Piagio. I purchased a new Ducati a couple of years ago even though 50 percent of the 6 new Ducs I've owned have been junk, but the importer has in all cases worked with me to fix the problems. This level of customer service has lead to increased new unit sales in the face of poor quality control. In the last 32 years I've bought 10 Guzzis, all used machines and love them all. How many new Guzzis might I have purchased if MG Corp. provided an appropriate level of customer service? I'm sure I'm not unique.

 

[HACY]

I think recall information is supposed to be public information. If I were you, I would contact these guys...

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/

"About the Office of Defects Investigation (ODI)
The Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) is an office within the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). ODI conducts defect investigations and administers safety recalls to support the NHTSA’s mission to improve safety on our Nation's highways. NHTSA is authorized to order manufacturers to recall and repair vehicles or items of motor vehicle equipment when ODI investigations indicate that they contain serious safety defects in their design, construction, or performance. ODI also monitors the adequacy of manufacturers' recall campaigns. Before initiating an investigation, ODI carefully reviews the body of consumer complaints and other available data to determine whether a defect trend may exist."

.

 

[Greg Field]

I can totally see why Pete left.

And I offer this truth to the rest of you: Never underestimate Piaggio's incompetence.

 

[toddhaven]

Those of us who have seen the secret communications can offer the following information:
The campaign in question is a Technical Update, not a NHTSA Safety Recall.

The differences between a TU and a NHTSA Recall are significant.
I applaud Piaggio for addressing a concern in a timely manner.
We shall see.
And yes, more info will follow.

 

[RJVB]

Timely is great, if only they'd put the priorities right ...

I agree this is not a letter coming from a legal dept. I've seen the letter sent to the French Guzzitek maintainer ... who complied with what was asked simply because it meant suppressing a specific link. The docs are still there, and (I think) accessible via another link too (now protected against robots).

Making certain docs available for registered and logged-in members is another easy fix, too

 

[Dr. MG]

This is my first post here, so I don't want to get ousted my first time, but I must tell you, the "sky is falling" if you read some of these threads.

I have been involved with Moto Guzzi's for many years, about 33 to be exact, and some of you younger lads may not have any relative ability to reflect on the past. While you may complain, these past couple years have been some of the best support we have ever seen in the US. And here is why:

The parts supply is more available now than ever, While it is not perfect, neither are the Japanese, I waited a year for an ABS module for my older ST1100 from Honda, so don't think other manufacturers are better.

For a tiny piss ant company that sells a very small amount in the US, Piaggio Americas has spent considerable time and effort to grow the brand here in the US. Something that prior distributors haven't done for shit.

You actually have a place to call that will take your call or email and will try to fix your problem. Try that 15 years ago, or even 5 years ago, it was non existent.

They have turned out new models recently, not parts bikes, but new models, from the drawing board. We have been used to same old units with new body panels and BNG (BOLD NEW GRAPHICS) for years. Now we have the Stelvio, GRiso 8v, Norge and my favorite the new V7. BTW, did you know that Jim France took time out of Nascar Daytona 500 race week, to go down to his local dealer and BUY a V7.... For those of you that don't know the V7 was produced in the late 60's and was one model that led the way for Guzzi to reach it's peak in 1971 of about 45,000 units worldwide.

Lets talk about the secret recalls? Maybe you posters haven't ever heard about the tread act...... This is a government sponsored (ie your tax dollars) that oversees all manufacturers for failures via parts movement, warranty claims and customer reports. This program was developed due to "secret" problems such as Explorer and Firestone tried to cover up back in the day. A technical update is an inspect and repair if presented, but it still is a viable program. In the case of the bottom yokes, this is what is to be done. The dealer has to inspect it when he sees it, and if faulty by markings or a break/crack, it is replaced. I find nothing illegitimate about this.

Next, I would like to address the 8V issue. I do not own one, but a friend of mine does. He has been concerned about the unit, but has been riding it without trouble for well over 3,000 miles. Tuesday night he received a call from the Eastern Regional Manager to confirm his servicing dealer and said that Moto Guzzi would be sending a Tappet and Cam kit to his dealer to be installed. The guy explained the problem as a materials incompatibility with the tappets and camshaft. When my buddy called me, I was stunned.....
This is also not a recall, but a campaign, since it affects longevity. I have owned nearly 200 motorcycles in my lifetime, and I have NEVER ben contacted by a manufacturer rep to arrange a campaign or recall, did anyone else get this call. Because my buddy swears this happened.

I think this is a step in the right direction.

I am sure some of you will still want to take huge shits on MG, but you can't expect perfection, and I think they are doing a much better job. I just got a digiplex in 5 days from my local dealer. I had one fail in the 90's and it took over a year to get it, I hope they are able to keep it up.


Christian

 

[nomad]

I think his request is reasonable and leagall (if not badly worded) all he is saying is that we should all use the official site to obtain litriture documents etc. This is okay post a link to their document directly it will save space on your server (Save a copy just in case) - I suspect that they do not want documents all over the place as in time they may amend the fix notes and post them on their site so if you then get your hands on an old out of date copy it might detriment their work...

As far as manuals go - they are copywrited and not for free distrubution as they do market and sell the documents... Just like the dealer codes for the ECU etc lol...

PS I saw the document here first and have saved a copy for my personal records, I also have a copy of the manual on CD again something which I truley appreciate - anyone got the wiring diagram in colour (Color) ? B)

Yamaha and Triumph would go besserk if they could identify sites with their manuals and documentation on for free distribution... :side: so don't diss the messenger too much :woohoo:

I appreciate that they have put the roblem out there and have recalled to fix it, not many Marques would...

 

[RJVB]

The manuals are freely available, if you know where to find them. I'm not sure I got that the letter sent was about those. But do note that (AFAIK), the motoguzzi.it site does not tell you where to find those manuals.

The recall info, tech notes, etc, is available only to registered dealers.

I also learnt last Monday that Guzzi Italy can be a bitch with (European) dealers. I forgot when and how many, but at some recent point, a good majority of all dealers in Europe (France?) had been "blocked". He himself had been in that situation (meaning his parts orders were simply on hold) for an accounting difference of 300€ — and the still existant Guzzi France branch had not even been informed.

Finally, Piaggio doesn't exactly have a good name to uphold in terms of dealer (and customer) support for their own vehicles, i.e. the various scooter models. Almost all scooter dealers I visited with my gf when she was out to buy one 2y ago had been a Piaggio dealer at some point, and had dropped the brand out of frustration).

I do agree that the recalls are handled seriously and professionally (whether by phone call or by registered letter) ... once they decided to do something. But how long until there was a recall on the 4/8v engines, how long for the Norge topcase support, for the Norge headlight issue (IIRC they published an announcement before the actual recall on that one)?

 

[HACY]

toddhaven wrote:

Those of us who have seen the secret communications can offer the following information:
The campaign in question is a Technical Update, not a NHTSA Safety Recall.

The differences between a TU and a NHTSA Recall are significant.
I applaud Piaggio for addressing a concern in a timely manner.
We shall see.
And yes, more info will follow.

Might be, might be not. Ignoring that technical update and blowing up or immobilizing your engine right in the middle of tight bend might be a safety issue to yourself or any third parties around you. NHTSA might be interested - or not.

However that was not the point. Those guys are experts on vechile recalls. They should know if this kind of information is public or not and does the factory have a right to stop the free speech on these matters by saying that they have copyright to this (public?) document.

And they might be interested as well.

.

 

[Dr. MG]

I did a little checking. The lower yoke is a registered NHTSA recall, and it is still valid.

I have been thinking about some of the things RJVB said. I think you will find dealers from 2 yrs ago drastically changed since that time. If you think about Piaggio's take over of a poor distributor base only 2 years earlier you would be certain that some dealers would not be dealers any longer. Like any company, in the past two years, you have to cut the dead wood loose. This doesn't mean Piaggio is the bad guy here. I think some of you forget, that when Ivano Beggio bought MG and used up all his cash reserves in doing so, he leveraged the company (Aprilia) where it could not recover, and without Piaggio our Moto Guzzi's would have been defunct. Now, they (Piaggio) have used their money to upgrade the Moto Guzzi facilities, the structure and the support mechanisms. I spoke to a friend of mine that is a dealer today, he said he was called by the rep as well to make sure he could perform the task and that he had the time to do so.

If you really think about it, are we a bunch of crying fools that feel better stuck in the past of what has happened to this company. I am not sure if you are aware, but Piaggio Group US had very strong growth last year, as did Moto Guzzi and Aprilia. When other beloved manufacturers were down 30, 40, 50 percent, the company everyone is taking a shit on posted increases in sales. I think some of you need to pull you heads out for some air, and realize that they aren't perfect, but they are doing something. How in the hell can a company like Suzuki be down 47%.... I just don't get it.

As for recalls, you bring up an interesting point. If you think that you, me, Pete or anyone else on this board is responsibile for a recall or campaign, then you are a quack! I have been a manufacturers rep in the auto industry, heres how it works:

Since there are so many parts and so many different scenarios, each part is constantly watched. The systems all have a threshold for qty comsumed. When you start to see quantities being consumed, you initiate an investigation, Sometimes these investigations are NHTSA driven, but most of the time, they are manfacturer driven. it is in their best interest to fix the problem soon. The type of bitching we do here is the main reason we get new products after everyone else in the world. Americans are very hard to please. everyone knows this, so they release in europe first, find the problems, then release in America, with updates included in the production run, but I digress. So, the investigation starts: with field reports, part movement, warranty claims, etc...

Nothing is doen at this point. it still must be realized a couple things: is the customer doing something with it that it not standard? is the design intention wrong? This is called drilling down, it is typical quality type work. Once the factors are identified from returned parts, and inspected, then a conclusion can be made, and here is where it gets real interesting...... The bean counters......

They drill down into the cost and impact and weigh the potential for injury to the name or product. What is nice about things these days, is the TREAD act reporting system. They can't get around it. Moto Guzzi, just like every other company must report their failurs and warranty claim results to the government agency that I spoke about earlier. This information kind of removes credance to what Hacy said. All campaigns for updates technical or not, must go through NHSTA..... Yep, they are the oversight on all of this. You see before TREAD repoerting, the manufacturers could get some of this under the radar, but they can't now.

After the NHTSA signs off, so does TREAD, and then you end up with a recall or a tech bulletin.

So you see, even though Europe might know about this, your tax dollars still need to be spent, and each problem has overview from NHTSA. Top case rack, thats different, because it took an accessory to make it fail, so that gets a little more in depth. Cam shaft and tappets? I think 4-6 months to identify, re engineer, get parts made, get the bulletin authorized by a government agency is pretty damn good. For me they get a pass not a fail. and on a grading scale, I would say a B-. Besides, without illegal copywritten information being posted here, we would have never known. Although I would not choose ignorance, it would have kept most of you from bitching liek schoolgirls about it until they could go through the process.


Christian

 

[RJVB]

I don't understand a lot of you're (what I suppose is) jargon, but what I do understand is that you didn't get me completely either.

My remarks about dealers here in Europe ditching Piaggio has nothing to do with either Aprilia or Moto Guzzi. Even Aprilia is a relatively confidential brand. I was talking about Vespas and other scooters of Piaggio's own conception, the sales of which is what allowed them to take over Aprilia/Guzzi in the 1st place.

Calling me or us quack(s) because you think maybe one or some of us might think that we are responsible for recalls isn't a very constructive thing to do for a new member who doesn't want to get ousted. Unless that was to draw out Pete again, of course

Are you seriously suggesting that this TREAD thing governs recalls world-wide???

 

[StormShearon]

I think one of the issues that helps drive any factory's response to a possilbe issue with a product is product liabilty and lawsuits (read that as lawyers out to fund their condo in Aspen). They don't want to admit any fault or even hint at a possibilty publically becasue someone might get the bright idea to sue them for some reason - real or not. They do get sued on a regular basis, and some times it is not warrented. It might just make them a bit cautiious.

Now we as owners want as much info about any potential issues as soon as possible and we really want some official response from the factory as soon as possible (que the lawyers again). But they are not likely to respond until they have done their due diligence according to whatever laws have been put in place that govern their behavior in these matters. And since they have to deal with the lwas in each country they sell in, and since these laws are not universall, it might just make things from their standpoint a bit difficult. They might not want wide desimination of technical bullitens and such outside of what is required by law - as it might raise some possible legal issues (lawyers again and maybe politicians).

That aside, from my personal perspective working at maintaining a good interchange with your customers is not a bad thing. In fact, I think it is to the factory's beneift if they do this - and I don't mean through the normal dealer channels or via email (which does get ignored in a lot of cases, as some foilks just don't seem to get the whole internet thing). Enthusiast DL like this can be a great help to everyone, but not if you try and heavy hand it. It will not work anymore as gues what, the internet isn't really controllable , so your best bet is to use it to your best advantage, not rage about the info that pops up on it.

It is rather like trying to close the barn door after the horse left 6 months ago and is now living in Switzerland while the barn is in Indiana. The informatiojn will get out and it is really best to get in front of it all, not be trying to play catchup.

But that is just my two cents.

 

[Dr. MG]

RJ, Good point, like many Americans I have my head in my ass when it comes to the rest of the world. Thinking singularly provides a single response....

No you don't have the NHTSA (National Highway ad Traffic Safety Administration), but you do have TUV, and other euro agencies that watch dog companies. As for Piaggio scooters not being affected by Moto Guzzi, this is an incomplete thought. Of course the acquisition of MG/Aprilia/Laverda to the Piaggio company affected them. In Europe because of the brands they had drastic realignments for stores. Dealers that were scooter only were requested to take on other lines to grow the company, many did not, and opted out. The stability of Piaggio was affected by the buyout from Beggio. I do know that Transport Canada and the NHTSA share information.

I should have been more specific. The TREAD act does not drive recalls world wide, but it does track other markets "like" products.

As for Storms (esq.) comments. Don't fear the lawyers, fear the government! The issue with what you are saying is companies don't fear product liability that much, and while attorneys may think they have the upper hand in these cases, and many times you do, most manufacturers know you can be bought off before anything ever comes to trial anyway. This is good and bad, as it serves to get the job done in the short term and pay for the condo in Aspen (BTW how is the Skiing?), but really doesn't do anything for the long term, unless the bean counters calculate the cost of retooling to fix a given problem versus maybe paying out some settlements. If you question my thinking, I only need to remind you of Firestone and the Ford Explorer.

While I agree with this to a point:
"from my personal perspective working at maintaining a good interchange with your customers is not a bad thing. In fact, I think it is to the factory's beneift if they do this - and I don't mean through the normal dealer channels or via email (which does get ignored in a lot of cases, as some foilks just don't seem to get the whole internet thing)."

The main issue here is who is a crackpot or quack, and who isn't. One cornerstone of statistics is to throw the highest and the lowest numeral out as an anomoly, in this group, it is very hard to understand who is high and who is low.... Pun intended.... But the problem of having a "free for all" public group is always an interesting one. Let me see, it could be called an unfocused, focus group?

The main issue here is the response to this perceived problem. if it were my company, and I had copywritten information for down load, I would protect my information, and restrict the site to dealers only, by the use of a security disc, and I would encrypt each download to be "marked" so that I could tell who the rat was in my distributor group. if you don't think they are thinking about this right now due to posting their information all over the place, you (in general) are either crazy or not so smart. MG and the Piaggio group is growing, as we can see with the new offerings, and they have always been a company that has been very open to consumers, but there will come a time when they close the access down because it is perceived that it is doing them more harm than good, and this point may have been reached with Mr. Stasi. Only time will tell for us. Has anyone ever tried to get in touch with someone from a Japanese company? forgetaboutit. And what would have happened if this forum was for Honda, and you posted proprietary information from one of their sites...... Todd would be talking to their lawyers, and have a much better understanding about copywrite infringment....

We complain about MG alot, but the fact is, if they weren't here, and they were as perfect as Honda, we would hate them, because the large companies have lost their soul, and their products are a result of over refinement, lack of character, and of style. What do you say about a Japanese unit these days. I rode and rode and rode, and nothing ever happened... I put tires on twice and had four services, and it never did anything wrong. I don't know about your friends, but mine usually interupt at this point and say, remember when we were going over the divide on that B50SS and your Chain fell off...... Good thing we were already at the top....... Now those were the days of riding, when you didn't know if you would get there on time, but you new you would get there, sometimes in the back of a truck. Don't get me wrong, I don't live to fix, I live to ride, but sometimes I do like a challenge, and:

It is not the destination, but the journey that is remembered.


Christian

 

[GTM®]

U.S. Update, 3/25:

Service Communication: USA Technical Pre-Update Notice: Griso 8V and Stelvio 4V 1200 Engine - Camshaft follower/bucket replacement.

M.G.U.S.A. to contact each owner directly, then will determine what dealer they will use for the updated parts, and set an appointment with said dealer. Dealers will be responsible to order parts through normal parts channels.

 

[WayneOrwig]

RacerX wrote:

U.S. Update, 3/25:

Service Communication: USA Technical Pre-Update Notice: Griso 8V and Stelvio 4V 1200 Engine - Camshaft follower/bucket replacement.

M.G.U.S.A. to contact each owner directly, then will determine what dealer they will use for the updated parts, and set an appointment with said dealer. Dealers will be responsible to order parts through normal parts channels.

When I got the call, he asked what dealer I wanted the parts sent to. He said the dealer did NOT need to order parts.