V7 Charging issues / Dead battery -- PLEASE READ

[GTM®]

Hey, Todd. Both your wiring diagram and Joe's are for the dry alternator bikes. Any idea if anything changed with a wet alternator (besides a lower output)?

John, I don't off the top. Does the manual show the wiring diagram? If so I'll scan and get Carl on it.

 

[pokeyjoe]

There is a wiring diagram is the service station manual. It's the same for the RR.

 

[francod123]

Tested my bike with centurion and sure enough, voltage seems high. Got up to 15v at idle and stayed at 15 to 3k rpm. Wish I knew about this when I first got the bike. Mine is almost 3 years old and ~9k miles.

Todd, these error codes showed up and I know you mentioned about this ecu code in the first post. Not sure how to decode this error message. I do have your reflashed ECU.

Is all this something to worry about if the bike is still running? I have gotten a check engine light intermittently recently but bike seems to run fine.

See pic of error code.

With the voltage regulator off, I measured from center to center of each bolt hole on a 2013 V7 Stone and got 3 6/16"

Also, sign me up for the VR Kit in the works Todd. Want to fix this ASAP.

 

[drlapo]

Jack at roadster cycle tells me that the Mosfet unit he sells will work fine on our single phase systems
Easy install but you do need to cut and splice the leads from the old VR
The problem was discussed on the other site in October 2014
I wonder how many batteries have been cooked

 

[pokeyjoe]

The interesting part is that whenever someone checks their bike, its overcharging. I don't remember anyone coming back with an "It's OK."

 

[elkgrichard]

So far I think I've only read about one guy that claim his VR is normal. We do have some people on these boards that act as if they are obligated to wave the company flag. That's the reason I stay away from some forums.

We need a movement to institute a re-call. This is a consumer fraud situation, they must have known about this for crying out loud for some time. Same can be said for the lacking engine vent system.

 

[pokeyjoe]

I think the problem is proving that erratic or overcharging RRs are actually a problem. If I have a system that's charging at 15.5 volts, but everything is fine, I really don't have a leg to stand on. Now if there are lots of battery failures and sensor and ECU issues (not just a couple), then there is an issue. Todd has had a couple failures he attributes to the RR, but that's hardly the basis for a recall.

I look at this as another mod to make the bike "better". I improved the suspension and the fueling. Now its time to improve the electrical system.

 

[99sh]

When I initially notified my dealer of my +15V output, they simply compared against another new bike on the floor and called it 'OK'. You're better off repairing yourself with a mosfet unit; no dealer support here...

 

[elkgrichard]

My bike is sitting at the dealership as we speak for this overcharging issue. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

 

[GuzziMoto]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but 14.7 volts is typical charging voltage for modern batteries.
15 volts is not really that much above standard, Once you start getting much above 15 volts I could see it being a problem. Clearly 16 volts and above is flat out wrong. The one small block I own does not have that issue, it is an older small block and struggles to meet acceptable charge voltage. I am happy when it hits mid 14's.
Also, often the people posting in threads like this are the ones with issues. It is common for people to complain much louder than people who have nothing to complain about.
If yours is over-charging I would fix it. If your dealer won't fix it you can push it up to Moto Guzzi. But unless it is clearly an issue (I can't imagine they would consider charging at 15 volts an "issue") you may be wasting your time there. But as it is a pretty simple fix, and not too much $$$, I would simply replace the offending part with a better part. If you got MG to actually agree to fix it I would think all they would do is throw another part of the same type on it. That could just put you right back where you started.

 

[Kev M]

OK, I was drawn over here from WG by Drlapo to check out this thread.

For the record my 2013 is at 10k miles and more than 3 years with no SYMPTOMS of problems, but I'll try to take some time to test it later this week if the weather cooperates (it's been asleep since Nov/Dec).

Meanwhile, I've got a question of threshold, specifically at what point do we say the regulators are not operating correctly.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but 14.7 volts is typical charging voltage for modern batteries.
15 volts is not really that much above standard, Once you start getting much above 15 volts I could see it being a problem. Clearly 16 volts and above is flat out wrong. The one small block I own does not have that issue, it is an older small block and struggles to meet acceptable charge voltage. I am happy when it hits mid 14's.

I tend to agree with GuzziMoto, though I'm open to someone schooling me otherwise is the threshold should be lower.

Interestingly enough I just checked the Guzzi manual for the Stone/Special/Racer - and it specifies:

Voltage on battery poles with engine speed always between 3000 - 5000 RPM
· Start the engine, after about one minute of operating bring the speed to 3000-5000 RPM,
then measure with a tester the voltage at the battery poles that must always be between
13V and 15V.

Now, I'm not one to BLINDLY accept the OEM repair literature, especially from Guzzi. But we should put some weight on it.

Todd, the ones you've seen where there was damage, was the charging OVER 15 volts? Or was it just over that 14.4 threshold? I'm guessing the former right?

 

[francod123]

For me, I'm just going off what people with more knowledge than me are saying. And they're saying 15v is too high for idle. Maybe I shouldn't drink any cool-aid handed to me, but I trust many people's opinions on this forum. I do agree with you that most forum posts are usually concerned with problems, and that can lead to fearmongering among owners. However, it seems that most of the members on here with a V7 have a charging problem, and the other folks who have V7s probably just don't know, don't care, or are not as informed as we are.

 

[Daniel Swords]

Or, perhaps if you have a V7 that is three years old with several thousand miles on it and that has no over-charging symptoms even if it is over-charging the perhaps it isn't a warranty issue. Warranties have time limits for a reason. Perhaps in many/most cases the system design/build is rugged enough to handle over-charging without issues for a reasonable period, even if not forever.

 

[Seasider]

This is a valuable discussion.
I checked my battery with a needle guage voltmeter this morning and it was reading below 14v at 3000rpm and about 13 at idle. I've had my 2013 Stone from new and had no noticeable problems, athough I've only ever checked battery voltage before without engine running. I currently use a Shorai Lithium Ion battery. It was quite cold this morning - I don't know if ambient temperature makes much difference?

 

[francod123]

Or, perhaps if you have a V7 that is three years old with several thousand miles on it and that has no over-charging symptoms even if it is over-charging the perhaps it isn't a warranty issue. Warranties have time limits for a reason. Perhaps in many/most cases the system design/build is rugged enough to handle over-charging without issues for a reasonable period, even if not forever.

Could be, but I'm also pulling an ECU error per my previous posts that seems to possibly correlate with this overcharging issue according to Todd per his first post.

But what's a "reasonable period?" Three to four years? That doesn't seem reasonable for a problem that could cause major problems such as frying the ECU and needing to replace that out of pocket.

 

[abbienormal]

I know if I was checking any of my bikes at idle and I got 15V the R/R is coming out. There is a reason they say spin it to 3,000 to 5,000rpm when checking and that is they do not put out enough at idle to maintain the battery. The last R/R I had go bad I was north of Cowen, WV and I had to use my pliers to remove my battery because it was too hot to touch and the sides were swelled so much it was hard to pull out. I installed a NAPA battery from a very friendly NAPA dealer who sent the parts truck up to pick me and the battery up and bring me back. I cooked that one by the time I got back to Ohio because I initially thought the battery had shorted out internally as the battery was dead in the morning but gained a charge while riding so the system was charging.
My advice is if you have one that is overcharging go with the replacement Todd is making or whatever works and complain to Guzzi. If they recall them maybe you can get them to pay for the repair.

 

[GTM®]

Todd, the ones you've seen where there was damage, was the charging OVER 15 volts? Or was it just over that 14.4 threshold?

Per my post a few times above, many of those including the several I've repaired because of "running issues" idled at 15.5v, and went up into the high 16~17's at 3k RPM. All those I've had here required battery replacement earlier then expected, and most all also required replacement of the cam sensor to throttle correctly (all showed a cam sensor & ECU error with diagnostics). The last one I had that was "addressed" by a local dealer ended up having to replace the battery, voltage regulator, cam sensor (twice) and the ECU/TB for it to run correctly.
My point of this post is that I recommend replacing the VR with one that puts the battery voltage down closer to upper 13s at idle, and no more then 14.4 or so at revs to save the headache and expense longer term.

 

[Kev M]

Thanks for the info.

To be clear that I understand what you're saying, would you agree then that it seems that anything up to 15 volts (UP TO, NOT ABOVE) and tested at 3-5k rpm is arguably running as designed/specified by the OEM, but that your personal recommendation is that you'd feel safer with something that maxed out around 14.4 volts at speed. And perhaps, because you've seen so many that have overcharged you'd recommend an preventative upgrade to an aftermarket RR which accomplishes that to prevent possible future damage, especially if someone is seeing close to 15V stock.

 

[GTM®]

To be clear that I understand what you're saying, would you agree then that it seems that anything up to 15 volts (UP TO, NOT ABOVE) and tested at 3-5k rpm is arguably running as designed/specified by the OEM, but that your personal recommendation is that you'd feel safer with something that maxed out around 14.4 volts at speed.

Welcome, and I would say see if you can identify any battery manufacturer that is OK with anything over 14.4 volts and post them here. I might do the same to Marelli for the ECU and a few of the sensor manufacturers myself. I would still consider 15v at any time too high IMO. Based on the repairs I've done, it aligns with this long-time standing knowledge.

 

[elkgrichard]

At this point I don't have much confidence with the stock VR. Only way to fix this will be an aftermarket VR and all of these bikes will need that change.

That being said this looks to me like a re-call situation because these VR's are defective from the get go. ALL OF EM!

So my point is this.....at what time frame should Guzzi step up to the plate with this.... and the only way that is going to happen... probably with people submitting complaints and claims through the Federal level.

I went through this with rear cam bearings on my Electra Glide years ago, and it was like pulling teeth, well over a year before HD admit the issue. In the meantime I end up rebuilding the cam chest with aftermarket rear bearing out of my own pocket. Never did get that money back. I'll never forget the naysayers jumping up my ass telling me I was screwing the bike up with the after market bearings, which by the way end up the bearing HD went with for the fix. I went from dip shit to hero status over night.

So I'm a good dog to have in the fight, experienced at this shit.