New sport-touring model

[Luko1]

Hi All
I’d like to suggest a new Guzzi sport-touring model and hopefully get some support from you guys. To paint a picture for you, imagine the BMW R1200RS with a large capacity Guzzi engine in it (perhaps a retuned Audace engine?).
Maybe it can be named ‘Daytona’. I’m not sure if this appropriate.
Retro cafe and cruiser models are fine but for Guzzi lovers that want a more spirited ride and some practicality there’s nothing currently available.
I’m aware of the slow Stelvio and Norge sales figures and subsequent cessation of these models but this is not what I’m suggesting.
The Stelvio would be equivalent to a BMW GS and the Norge a BMW RT. I’m suggesting an RS equivalent. The Ducati Supersport and Kawasaki Ninja 1000 are other likely comparisons.
I think this would hit the sweet spot for Guzzi buyers.
If you like the idea please post your support so we get the message out there.
Please refrain from suggesting yet more concepts and keep the message focused on the sport touring concept.
I look forward to your replies.
Thank you.

 

[john zibell]

Wish you luck with that. In the US the EV1100 tanks are way too small. I had a custom tank made. Even showed it to Guzzi reps from Italy at an open house in Lillington NC (around the year 2000). They liked the looks of the tank, but it didn't do any good.

 

[Vagrant]

Reality is you have a better chance of climbing into bed with a smoking hot hollywood actress than having any MFG. listen to you!

 

[Zebraranger]

Unfortunately sport tourers haven't been selling very well over the last 3 or 4 years due to adventurer tourers be all the rage now. I had one of the best most technically advanced sport touring bikes that Triumph had ever produced, the Triumph Trophy SE, introduced in 2013, they discontinued it 4 years later due to a lack of sales. Same reason Honda discontinued the ST1300. Sales have also been slow for the Yamaha FJR 1300 and the Kawasaki Concourse 1400, the local dealer has the 2018 Concourse ABS model marked down from 15,900 to 11,500.

 

[Luko1]

Thanks for the response Zebraranger.
The models I’m referencing are on the sportier end of the sport/touring spectrum. The models you’re referring to have more of a touring bias. The Kawasaki Ninja 1000 and Ducati Supersport are selling very well.

 

[Trout]

A rider over on the Vic forum bought a Trophy about a year ago.
He loves it.

 

[GTM®]

I’d like to suggest a new Guzzi sport-touring model and hopefully get some support from you guys. To paint a picture for you, imagine the BMW R1200RS with a large capacity Guzzi engine in it (perhaps a retuned Audace engine?).

Sport-Tour is a flat market segment. Adventure Tour was the hotter segment, and that is waning. I can make you one of my 1380cc GTM builds in whatever fashion you’d like. You may be excited on what I preview in the next few months on the new website.

 

[V700Steve]

There you go, have Todd put a 8V14 in an SP3 or Norge.

 

[Robert Gibson]

Sport-Tour is a flat market segment. Adventure Tour was the hotter segment, and that is waning. I can make you one of my 1380cc GTM builds in whatever fashion you’d like. You may be excited on what I preview in the next few month on the new website.

1380 GTM Bellagio?

 

[GTM®]

1380 GTM Bellagio?

Well, 1380cc Tonti-esque era style Le Mans.

 

[Ess Tee]

Unfortunately sport tourers haven't been selling very well over the last 3 or 4 years due to adventurer tourers be all the rage now. I had one of the best most technically advanced sport touring bikes that Triumph had ever produced, the Triumph Trophy SE, introduced in 2013, they discontinued it 4 years later due to a lack of sales. Same reason Honda discontinued the ST1300. Sales have also been slow for the Yamaha FJR 1300 and the Kawasaki Concourse 1400, the local dealer has the 2018 Concourse ABS model marked down from 15,900 to 11,500.
View attachment 15783

That's not an ST. Maybe a LT i.e. light touring, but no way that boat was a sport touring bike.

Nay sayers have been saying the ST market is dead for at least 15 years now, owing to the adventure bike craze, and yet Kawi introduces a turbo charged ST beast this year. Go figure.

Guzzi could very easily just brng back an updated Lemans...but no....you have to chose the Caponord from Aprilia as Piago's entry into the "ST" market. Another wonky "adventure" bike. :-(

 

[Luko1]

That's not an ST. Maybe a LT i.e. light touring, but no way that boat was a sport touring bike.

Nay sayers have been saying the ST market is dead for at least 15 years now, owing to the adventure bike craze, and yet Kawi introduces a turbo charged ST beast this year. Go figure.

Guzzi could very easily just brng back an updated Lemans...but no....you have to chose the Caponord from Aprilia as Piago's entry into the "ST" market. Another wonky "adventure" bike. :-(

I agree
The sport touring market had slowed a bit but it’s picking up again hence the Kawasaki you mentioned and Ducati introducing the Supersport S.

 

[Ess Tee]

I agree
The sport touring market had slowed a bit but it’s picking up again hence the Kawasaki you mentioned and Ducati introducing the Supersport S.

Not only that/those, but look at BMW's 1600 "GT", often incorrectly referred to as an ST, its weight/heft notwithstanding for some strange reason, when they have an actual twin ST, r1200st, introduced long after the death toll of ST bikes started ringing. Even their r1200rt is considered by some to be a ST. And how about that Goldwing redesign? One could easily argue it's a big ST/GT. If their VFR1200 wasn't so, ummm... "odd", I'm sure that bike would have been a success too. And even Suzuki got into the mix with their "comfortable sport bike" the GSX 1000 F. And KTM! They just upgraded their unbelievable SD 1290 GT! I'm sure if MG brought back an updated and equally sexy Lemans, it would find a niche, heck, even the MGX 21 is said to handle very well and has been referred to as the ST of cruisers...at 750lbs! Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Norge was discontinued due to Euro 5 demands, not lack of sales. If the Adventure bike craze has hurt ST sales, it's because manufacturers don't want to compete against themselves IMO. I am pretty sure if Ducati brought out a v-4 ST bike that looked like the Desmosedici with side cases...it would out sell the MTS...with ease.

 

[Kubbie]

The BEST ST? Just take a look at my avatar. Triumph's Sprint ST 1050. Show sportbikes a wheel in the corners AND out distance a Goldwing. In the same day!
Might have bought a Norge if there was one around when I bought the Griso.

 

[Luko1]

Not only that/those, but look at BMW's 1600 "GT", often incorrectly referred to as an ST, its weight/heft notwithstanding for some strange reason, when they have an actual twin ST, r1200st, introduced long after the death toll of ST bikes started ringing. Even their r1200rt is considered by some to be a ST. And how about that Goldwing redesign? One could easily argue it's a big ST/GT. If their VFR1200 wasn't so, ummm... "odd", I'm sure that bike would have been a success too. And even Suzuki got into the mix with their "comfortable sport bike" the GSX 1000 F. And KTM! They just upgraded their unbelievable SD 1290 GT! I'm sure if MG brought back an updated and equally sexy Lemans, it would find a niche, heck, even the MGX 21 is said to handle very well and has been referred to as the ST of cruisers...at 750lbs! Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Norge was discontinued due to Euro 5 demands, not lack of sales. If the Adventure bike craze has hurt ST sales, it's because manufacturers don't want to compete against themselves IMO. I am pretty sure if Ducati brought out a v-4 ST bike that looked like the Desmosedici with side cases...it would out sell the MTS...with ease.

Yesssssssss!
I forgot about the GSX1000F and Super Duke 1290GT.
The KTM has been getting great reviews and only just won bike of the year in one publication.
The sport/sport touring segment is alive and well.
In my mind I’m picturing this new Le Mans with a top fairing only. Along the same lines as the MGS01 not a big Norge fairing that covers most of the engine.

 

[Dale Baker]

As a Norge owner, (and before that a Buell S3T), my thought is to revamp/update the Norge with the larger Euro 4 engine, update the styling, lose 50 lbs., add the maximum on new electronics - traction control, built in GPS, cruise control, tire pressure monitors, the best in LED lighting with some perimeter lamps, etc. Guzzi already knows how to build a comfortable Sport Touring bike, they just need to make the natural updates.

Interesting that Honda is "bridging the gap" downward a bit with the new, slightly lighter weight Gold Wing. I have not seen one in person yet, but it sure looks fabulous in the pictures - really a tight package. Guzzi could do this with the big motor.

The question is whether sales of a few hundred to maybe 500 units per year is enough to bring Piaggio back to the Sport Touring Market?
Hard to make money at those numbers, even if you can get five years between model changes.

 

[Scott Seigmund]

Luko1, I know exactly the kind of bike you are talking about and I want one too. I came back to motorcycling this year after a long hiatus and I find the current bike market fascinating but offering little to interest me. I have looked hard at the BMW R1200RS as it typifies for me what a sport touring bike should be; fast, good handling, some protection from the elements, shaft drive, good range between fill-ups, available panniers, not grossly overweight, doesn't look like a transformer or some giant, prehistoric bird of prey.

I ended up buying a used bike. Something cool and uncomplicated while I get reacclimated with the market and riding. It's a blood-red Breva 1100 in like-new condition. In today's bike parlance it's called a "naked bike"! To make it more naked I removed the plastic faring from the engine sump and wrapped the header primaries with titanium header wrap. It's pure Italian sex-on-wheels, and I took it to the local BMW dealer's Octoberfest this weekend. To say it stole the show on style points in that sea of homogeneous adventure bikes would be an understatement. One of the great things about riding a Guzzi is you won't see yourself at every intersection, pullout, or pub, and people will just come and talk to you about the bike! I love this bike so much I'm now looking at possibly acquiring a Norge and making it more of an ST platform. It really sucks what Guzzi is offering its customers at the moment that the used bike market is more appealing.

I am intrigued by the recent announcement of the V85TT. I'm not particularly interested in the style or purpose of the V85TT but the engine and drivetrain have great potential for future variations as hinted at by MG, and I very much hope that this engine is capable of increased displacement up to about 1200cc. The engine is air cooled and designed to be a real stressed member bringing the possibility of lighter weight. The combustion chamber has many similarities to the Chrysler Gen III HEMI which has proven to be efficient, clean and powerful providing performance on par with 4V twin cam engines of similar displacement. Interestingly the engine utilizes pushrods and not OHC which will help to reduce the polar moment and keep it compact. I think if the weigh is kept under control, 850cc displacement of the new Guzzi would make a very nice ST platform and far more interesting than say the BMW F800GT.

An observation about the current state of the motorcycle market which was driven forcefully home at the BMW Octoberfest is the advanced age of the Adventure Bike riders. If I were a betting man I would say the age of the average BMW GSA owner is on par with Porsche 911 and Corvette owners. The lack of younger customers and female customers was absolutely shocking. This situation is driven in no small part by the high cost of typical models on sale. Younger guys can't afford big ADV and touring bikes that are WAY over $20K and often well over $30K out the door. Then you need the requisite 50 lbs of ADV body armor that goes with the bike. For the life of me, I can't figure out why a guy 60 years or older wants to wear 50 lbs of hot clothing and ride a bike weighs north of 700 lbs laden!?!? I think a lot of these guys dream of riding to Deadhorse, AK or down the Baha Peninsula when in reality their big, heavy and too tall adventure bikes will never leave the asphalt. I guess it's an image thing, but I still don't understand it. A good ST bike should be a versatile all-rounder that you can ride to work, on the weekend and on backroad adventure trips, solo or two-up.

My apologies for the long first post.
Scott

 

[Luko1]

Scott Seigmund
GREAT insight and perspective! I was thinking it but couldn't articulate it anywhere near as well as you have. Thanks!
In a few years we'll have an over supply of used GS's that their aging owners can no longer ride because of the height/weight.
BTW, congratulations on the Breva purchase.

Can I add to your comments:
We need to be realistic about what a small company like Guzzi can do. Of course we would all like to see a Guzzi in every category but this is simply not feasible. I think MV Agusta has done a better job of realising what their niche is and sticking to it.
I think Guzzi has missed the point, "Harley's are the biggest seller in the US therefore we'll build a cruiser, retro/cafe racer/bobbers are popular now therefore we should build one". MV ignores all this and builds bikes they are known for (sexy, sleek, fast etc)

This sport tourer we're suggesting could be offered with different options and 'packs'. you could have a 'touring pack' (taller screen, panniers., heated grips etc) and a 'sport pack' (low clip-ons, rear set pegs, exhaust etc) ie the flexibility to tailor it to individuals needs on one platform. The BMW R1200RS is definitely a good bike to use as a guide.

If I use myself as an example. I own a Griso SE and there's nothing in the Guzzi current line up I would buy. I would need to go to another manufacturer for my next purchase.

 

[Zebraranger]

That's not an ST. Maybe a LT i.e. light touring, but no way that boat was a sport touring bike.

Sorry, but in 2013 the Triumph Trophy SE, the FJR 1300 and the Concourse 1400 were classified as Sport Tourers, not only by the manufacturers, but by all the mags also. Things do change with time.....Here's one of many articles that might jog your memory.
https://www.cycleworld.com/2013/06/...otorcycle-comparison-test-review-photos-specs

 

[Luko1]

Sorry, but in 2013 the Triumph Trophy SE, the FJR 1300 and the Concourse 1400 were classified as Sport Tourers, not only by the manufacturers, but by all the mags also. Things do change with time.....Here's one of many articles that might jog your memory.
https://www.cycleworld.com/2013/06/...otorcycle-comparison-test-review-photos-specs

You're absolutely correct. The models you're referencing are often referred to as 'Sport Tourers' but for the sake of this thread my intent when pitching this idea was the slightly sportier end of the sport touring spectrum (a Panigale being on one end and a Goldwing on the other). I probably shouldn't have used the term 'Sport Touring' in the first instance and focused on examples. I'm thinking of a BMW R1200RS equivalent not R1200RT.