Matris Kit produces harsh ride

[Wistrick]

Ever since I installed my Matris front fork kit on my 09 Norge its seems to ride much harsher..It feel much more planted in the twistes but I feel every bump in the road...I have talked with to others who have installed these kits and they all say there ride got smoother...Something isn;t quite right here...

I have pulled the fork twice now double checking everything I can think of to no avail...Hitting a raised paint line gonna though an intersection I feel like I hit a 2 x4...something isn't right at all....thoughts

Dan

 

[GTM®]

Dan, only few things I can think of… is the valve sitting correctly on top of the damping rod? How much effort is required to get the cap onto the forks? What weight fork oil are you using?

 

[Rafael]

Have you replaced your rear shock? If new, is it set up and adjusted for your weight? I had my 1200 S forks on for a while before replacing the shock and found the ride harsher under certain conditions. The soft suspension in the rear was amplified into a harsh ride. Have you tried a lower w oil? Maybe a 15w oil? Maybe your spring rate is too heavy? Too light?

Could be that my buddy's B11 with the Matris kit has spring rate that is a step lighter than recommended for his weight. Never found out which spring rate he has.

What tires are you running? When it come time to change them, try the Metz Z8s. They have a nice feature of dampening shock at the handle bars.

 

[Wistrick]

Dan, only few things I can think of… is the valve sitting correctly on top of the damping rod? How much effort is required to get the cap onto the forks? What weight fork oil are you using?

very little to effort is required to get the caps back on....the plunger valve thing from the matris kit is seated.....I am gonna pull the forks and double check fluid height 120mm correct??? with the springs and spacer out and plunger in place....

I wish some one could tell me what rate spring was sent with my kit....I have no idea....

thanks

Dan

 

[GTM®]

Dan, put in 440ml only in each leg, max. Sounds like too much fluid is likely the problem.

Ping me direct for spring rate info.

 

[Rafael]

Sounds like too much fluid is likely the problem.

That thought popped into my head as I was reading Dan's last post.

Did you use one of these to set the level? http://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08...383263434&sr=8-1&keywords=fork+oil+level+tool

IIRC the fork has to be collapsed to set the oil level then and the guts.

 

[Wistrick]

Dan, put in 440ml only in each leg, max. Sounds like too much fluid is likely the problem.

Ping me direct for spring rate info.

Matris direction clearly state to fill be 120mm from top of fork with fork collapsed...Have no idea how many how many mlk that is...

Dan

 

[john zibell]

Dan, put in 440ml only in each leg, max. Sounds like too much fluid is likely the problem.

Ping me direct for spring rate info.

Matris direction clearly state to fill be 120mm from top of fork with fork collapsed...Have no idea how many how many mlk that is...

Dan

I'd suggest you use Todd's spec for the amount of oil. He has quite a bit of experience with this system. Also you didn't answer the question of what weight oil you used. The weight of the oil (viscosity) does make a difference.

 

[Wistrick]

Dan, put in 440ml only in each leg, max. Sounds like too much fluid is likely the problem.

Ping me direct for spring rate info.

Matris direction clearly state to fill be 120mm from top of fork with fork collapsed...Have no idea how many how many mlk that is...

Dan

I'd suggest you use Todd's spec for the amount of oil. He has quite a bit of experience with this system. Also you didn't answer the question of what weight oil you used. The weight of the oil (viscosity) does make a difference.

PJ's Tuner 20wt oil..

Todd should I ignore the Matris instructions and only use 440ml of fluid in each leg????

 

[Stevie]

20 wt might be a bit too heavy.

 

[Wistrick]

20 wt might be a bit too heavy.

again 20wt is what the Matris Kit Instructions say to use....

Dan

 

[Nick]

I also used 20W and 120mm from the top and have no problems. This is the first I heard/read of the 440ml figure.

I followed these directions:

Breva V1100 fork oil change (Norge and Sport may differ somewhat)

Changing the fork oil on a regular basis is a good idea. While oil doesn’t “wear out”, it becomes contaminated with wear particles and moisture. If all feels well with a new bike I’ll leave changing the oil until the bike is one year old and thereafter change the oil at two yearly intervals. The handbook calls for 400cc of oil (5W up to 20W – that's a big viscosity range!) per leg. I opted to use 450cc of 15W for increased damping, and air-springing effect at full compression. As it turned out I measured 450cc of oil removed from each leg. When you consider that all the oil is not able to be saved and measured, I estimate that each leg had been given about 470cc at the factory. The old oil was darkish in colour, indicating wear particles, but otherwise quite clean looking and with none of the yellowing which moisture causes. In the saved oil there were the normal metal specks from running-in but nothing of concern. Viscosity was difficult to judge.

The task took slow old me 2.5 hours, which included time for coffee as the legs drained of kerosene, but a real mechanic would probably do it in 2 hours or less.


Here's how I went about the task:
• Place the bike on the centrestand and place timber blocks under the sump so that the front tyre is clear of the floor.
• Loosen the outer handlebar riser screws accessible from under the fork crown. (top triple clamp) This is necessary to allow the crown to open and release the stanchions when the pinch screws are loosened. (In-hex 6mm)
• Loosen the fork leg top plugs now. (28 mm socket)
• Loosen the crown pinch screws to release the stanchions. (In-hex 6mm)
• Remove the front mudguard. (In-hex 4mm)
• Remove the brake calipers and leave them on the hoses. (In-hex 7mm)
• Disconnect the speedometer sensor from the right slider lower. (8mm socket) Cut away the two small cable ties fixing the cable to the slider inner lugs.
• Remove the front wheel. (In-hex 5mm for axle pinch screws and 30mm socket for axle nut) (see "Breva front wheel removal")
• Note how many stanchion rings are showing above the crown. (mine had 3, which happens automatically if the stanchions are pushed up hard against the top stops)
• On one leg, loosen the paired pinch screws of the fork yoke. (bottom triple clamp)
• Slide the fork leg down and out of the bike. (Be ready in case the leg decides drop out!)
• Repeat for the second leg.
• Grip each fork stanchion lightly and vertically in a vice using jaw soft protection and remove the top plugs. (which come out easily but need a little downward pressure against the spring as you do so to ensure that the bottom threads are not damaged as the plug comes free)
• Push the stanchions into the sliders and remove the springs. (the top of the spring is of smaller diameter than the bottom)
• Invert the legs over a container and drain out all the old oil. At the same time the spacer tubes will come out and likely drop into the oil. Pump the legs in and out full stroke several times both upright and inverted to achieve complete drainage.
• Add about a cup of kerosene to each leg, pump upright and inverted full stroke several times, then drain to wash the internals. Allow to drain inverted for a about half an hour at least.
• Wash the springs and spacers with kerosene and allow to dry.
• Add new fork oil and pump the upright legs several times full stroke to prime the damping chambers.
• Extend each leg fully, hold the stanchion vertically in the vice and refit the spacer tube, spring, and top plug after lubricating its sealing O-ring. (Again, apply a little downward pressure against the spring as you start to screw in the plug to ensure that the bottom threads are not damaged as the plug starts to engage)
• Refit the fork legs, pushing them up until they come against the top stop, and tighten the yoke paired pinch screws.
• Tighten the top plugs now.
• Loosen the yoke pinch screws again and rotate the fork stanchion so that the top preload adjuster marks are sensibly and equally placed and ensure that the correct number of stanchion rings are showing above the crown.
• Re-assemble everything else in reverse order.


Note
The plastic spacer tubes measured 38mmOD x 32mmID x 204mm long. I wouldn’t recommend increasing the length to firm the suspension because it won’t achieve that. All it will do is raise the ride height. If firmer springing is wanted then the answer is to fit firmer springs.

and these:

Part 1: Installation.

The installation procedure is pretty much the same procedure as the for oil change. https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/188/2202.html So if you've changed the fork oil you're good to go. If not, its easy just follow the instructions.

Here's something I did in addition to the B11 Fork Oil Change Instructions.
1) Use 2 large slot screw-drivers to spread the the top and bottom triple clamps. Make sure you place a cushion on the floor in case the fork gets away from you.

The Matris instructions are a bit confusing. So here are some tips.
1) Removal of the plunger is not required. Too much extra work just for cleaning. Follow the cleaning instructions in the Oil change thread.
2) The diagram on the Matris instructions is not a guzzi fork, it appears that the flow regulator (A) goes below the plunger, it doesn't, it goes on top with the narrow end going in first. The attached pics show the order the parts go back in as shown in another Matris diagram.
3) Use a fork oil measuring tool like this one: http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/partno/08-0121/ to remove excess oil. I compared a stock fork with 450ml oil and B11 fork with 120mm oil level measured from the top with the flow regulator in place and the fork tube bottomed out. Found there to be 10mm difference but the spring arrangement may account for that. Stock spring goes on top and Matris spring on bottom.
4) The Matris instructions Warn! to use 20wt oil and in the body of of the text state "Use 10 wt oil. I used 20wt, I suppose different oil wts can be used to adjust C/R, but I'm not sure.
5) I found that the flow regulator fell into place without a problem when dropped in. Couldn't see it but once I lowered the spring in I could feel it seat properly. If you want to visually confirm that the regulator seats properly, stop filling the fork when the level reaches the top of the plunger. The plunger is the first thing you see as you look into the for tube, the top has a white ring. Drop the regulator in, seat it with the spacer and spring, withdraw the spacer and spring and continue filling to the estimated level. Too much extra work IMO.
6) Take the oil level measurement with the regulator inside. Install the spacer and spring push down to seat the regulator. The spring guide already attached to the spacer, I found that one end of the spring holds on to the spring guide better, so flip the spring to find out.
7) Now pull up the fork tube and place the Matris (fork plug group) cap on the spacer, keep pulling up the fork tube till you can begin threading the cap.
8) Before tightening the triple clamps make sure the name on top is lined up as desired.

The tight coils go upwards. If it's just springs, use 20w fork oil
************************
I think Rafael is the author

 

[Wistrick]

I think this is where Todd is getting the 440ml

. I compared a stock fork with 450ml oil and B11 fork with 120mm oil level measured from the top with the flow regulator in place and the fork tube bottomed out. Found there to be 10mm difference but the spring arrangement may account for that. Stock spring goes on top and Matris spring on bottom.

440ml = 440 cc
1liter= 1000 cc

Todd is probably on to something...Cause as i recall it took more than 1 liter to fill both legs...must not have had the fork level tool setup right is all I can think...

Seem everybody is using Belrays 20wt with these kits so I try that.....

thanks

Dan

 

[GTM®]

Todd is probably on to something...Cause as i recall it took more than 1 liter to fill both legs...must not have had the fork level tool setup right is all I can think...

I you've used more then one liter for the job, it's way too much.
For me personally, I use exactly 500ml per side. 450ml is spec, but for a slightly more push ride, 10ml less (440) seems to work well. YOMV.

 

[Wistrick]

Mystery solved...I went out and check my fork oil height tool...With it set at 120mm when I measured it it was 100mm..Guess that is why my ride was so harsh....

Dan

 

[Wistrick]

changed the fork oil yesterday refilled with mix of 20wt and 7.5w to get me at a Cst@40 of 59.5 and put 450 cc in each leg...With the preload back off all the way (need to get the sag set)

Bottom line much better.....still fill the bumps in the road but its not harsh like it was...But it much more stable in the corners, less wallowing and much less dive under braking....Sweet!!!

Dan

 

[Rafael]

Hey Dan

Did you measure the fluid you took out? Curious. Changing two things at once makes it hard to tell what is the cause of the problem. On Willie's bike he still feels the bumps but the bike doesn't bounce around or feel harsh.

 

[Wistrick]

Hey Dan

Did you measure the fluid you took out? Curious. Changing two things at once makes it hard to tell what is the cause of the problem. On Willie's bike he still feels the bumps but the bike doesn't bounce around or feel harsh.

No I didn't measure it...Your description of Willies bike is how I would describe mine now...Huge improvement....

Dan

 

[Squardy]

Hi all
I fitted the matris drop in kit to my Norge plus the Penski rears that Todd recommended, and followed the instructions to the letter, which clearly stated 10wrt oil in the instructions included not 20wrt. I also filled to the measurement stated not volume. I used a 1 lite bottle to do both legs and had none left?

The ride is much improved over standard, yes you still feel sharp bumps but I suspect any bike will feel them. But the thing that impressed me the most is the fact that I don't even have to think what the front end is doing anymore, its like it is not there anymore if that makes sense, it just does what it supposed too, I actually find myself looking down through the faring to see if the forks are going up and down not that I would recommend doing that,

I am very happy with the Matris front end and also the Penski rear, my wife no longer gets winded when hitting bumps, thanks Todd for the recommendation.

 

[jdub]

I used Redline 10wt oil with the Matris drop in kit in my Norge. To me, there is hardly any damping effect, either in compression or rebound. I will probably switch to 20wt the next time around.