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CARC/Shaft vs. Chain drive debate

lucky phil

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
148
Location
Melbourne, Victoria
JDB said:
Pete, I will check that this afternoon. My worry is that after heavy engine braking in 1st and 2nd gear, introduced a measurable amount of slop..... I should have used the rear brake.

Your right the issue is at low rpm in higher the higher gears. I'll update after I test ride. Thanks.
Wish I had a bike with a CARC,then I could worry about engine braking,not using the rear brake,leaving it outside where it might get wet,corrosion,retainer nut torque,failed bearings,leaking seals,the cost of a replacement unit etc,etc.
And people denigrate chain drives!!!
Ciao
 
Re: CARC strip for bearing replacement.

JDB,
The CARC is very robust and you definitely don't have to fuss with it. Letting it chatter as you did isn't a good idea, but as for getting it wet, dirty, riding in the rain or wringing your hands it's not an issue.

If I'm riding in heavy rain, i'll change the oil because it will get contaminated from the breather (Pete has a fix for this), but mine has been bulletproof for over 75k km's

Thanks to Pete's and other's experience i've checked things such as the pinion nut which was fine. It's an anvil.
 
Re: CARC strip for bearing replacement.

lucky phil said:
Wish I had a bike with a CARC,then I could worry about engine braking,not using the rear brake,leaving it outside where it might get wet,corrosion,retainer nut torque,failed bearings,leaking seals,the cost of a replacement unit etc,etc.
And people denigrate chain drives!!!
Ciao

Modern chain drives are wonderfull things. Who's 'denigrating' them?

Phil, judging by your avatar pic you own a V11 with possibly the second most problematic bevelbox of any shaft drive Guzzi. The CARC by comparison is a fantastic piece of engineering that so far has suffered NONE of the chronic and expensive problems of the V11 box.

Pete
 
Re: CARC strip for bearing replacement.

pete roper said:
lucky phil said:
Wish I had a bike with a CARC,then I could worry about engine braking,not using the rear brake,leaving it outside where it might get wet,corrosion,retainer nut torque,failed bearings,leaking seals,the cost of a replacement unit etc,etc.
And people denigrate chain drives!!!
Ciao

Modern chain drives are wonderfull things. Who's 'denigrating' them?

Phil, judging by your avatar pic you own a V11 with possibly the second most problematic bevelbox of any shaft drive Guzzi. The CARC by comparison is a fantastic piece of engineering that so far has suffered NONE of the chronic and expensive problems of the V11 box.

Pete
I just notice the odd ref to chain drives from time to time and their supposed short comings compared to the "shaft".
This always amuses me because coming from an engineering background and non Guzzi I tend to simply weigh up the pros and cons without any real persoanl bias.
I have owned several BMWs in the past as well as literally dozens of other bikes of all persuasions and I am amazed at the passionate support I see for the shaft drive.
The truth is from an engineering perspective its pretty hard to make a rational argument to support a shaft drive over the modern o ring chain.
I was truly gob smacked when I pulled the V11 rear wheel off for the first time at the shear weight of the thing.I then felt the weight of the rear drive unit and felt a pang of sympathy for the poor rear shock that has to try and control all that mass.
Together with this particular thread which I find interesting as I do with all engineering/mechanical info I came to the same conclusion I did when I owned BMWs,and that is considering all the complexity,weight and power loss the shaft is simply not worth the bother.
If it went for 300,000 garanteed trouble free klms as most automotive rear drive assy's do (by and large)then I could see an argument for the shaft on a touring bike but the truth is they dont really seem to.There will always be an issue of some sort to deal with on a motorcycle shaft as you point out with the V11.
I was recently reading the factory Daytona workshop manual which surprised me with the statment that if the bike is used for sporting riding then the universal joints/shaft should be replaced at 20,000klms and if used for a lot of high speed riding then 15,000klms!!!.I know that most will go further than this but when the manufacturer reccommends these figures its still a surprise.You dont need to replace oring chains that often even with minimal maintenance.
As the previous poster stated he has had 75,000 trouble free klms from his CARC and only needs to change the oil if its ridden in the rain a lot.It always amazes me that motorcyclists seem to expect so much less from the engineering than car people.You wont find a car enthusiast bragging about the rear drive doing 75,000 trouble free klms,if it didnt do 300,000 he'd be shocked.
So my guzzzi education continues and I get enjoyment from correcting the shortcomings (massive flywheel,chain drive cam,a pushrod twin with a massive midrange hole in the power delivery)and chuckle at the rest and learn things.
Next project is the Centauro engine in the V11.More things to learn and solutions to work through.
Ciao
 
Re: CARC strip for bearing replacement.

I think the support for shafts is a hangover from when chains were messy and labour intensive. Certainly when I bought my first Guzzi thirty years ago the difference between it and my old Triumphs was night and day. Compare that with my experience with my Mana which has a drive chain that is near as dammit maintenance free and a shaft looks very hard to justify.

Yes, bevelboxes ARE heavy It's always going to be pretty much impossible to make something which has a gearbox as unsprung weight hold the road well!!! The V11's cantilever shock also seems to offer less control than the later rising rate system.

As you know I'm ambivalent about flywheel weight. Regardless of its engineering integrity a heavy flywheel can be a lovely thing. If itswhat you want. The chain drive to the cam is to me, simply a non issue. With a better tensioner ignition scatter can be done away with and the amount the cam timing retards over th life of a chain is really so minimal that it makes little difference in performance terms. My personal dislike of alloy timing gears is simply down to having seen so many sets, from many manufacturers, fail. Something that seems to drive certain people into a frenzy. I'm not sure why?? I did have a set of hellically cut steel gears in one of my bikes for a VERY long time. I eventually gave them to a mate who races because in that application they ARE greatly superior and the helix on the gear means you can play with the timing stupidly accurately.

If you're thinking of puting an 'Old' Hi Cam in the V11 you should have a chat with Paul Mineart who has built a six speed Daytona. Still IMHO one of the best looking Guzzis ever.

Pete
 
Re: CARC/Shaft vs. Chain drive chatter

Yes Peter,I agree with you on all points including the alloy timing gears. I have on order a set of steel ones from Joe Caruso and also an upgraded oil pump and steel drive gear for the Centauro set up.
I accept your argument for the chain to drive the camshaft and all I can say on the matter is that a chain for me simply lacks elegance in this application,and I like elegant engineering solutions.So its gear for me inside the engine and chain outside.
Thanks for the tip on Paul Mineart, I have checked his website and you are once again correct,his bike look magnificent.
I really appreciate people that make the time to document their projects and post it up for all to benefit from.
Ciao
 
Re: CARC/Shaft vs. Chain drive chatter

Back in the '90's I couldn't afford ro register a bike, certainly not my Guzzi. Kids, Mortgage, interest rates that went up to nearly 20% at times. It just wasn't a happening thing. I DID though spend the better part of that decade building my Guzzi into a short stroke hot-rod. 70mm crank, timing gears, 4mm over Carilo rods, 90mm forged pistons, mid-valve heads modified to suit the pistons and give a 10:1 compression ratio, (I wanted it to run happily on crap gas.) heavily lightened flywheel, 40mm carbs, Straight cut gearbox etc,etc. It made 84 RWHP at 9,800 RPM but if you ran it there for long it would torch its big ends through oil problems due to the pump cavitating. It was a lovely little thing and when I was financial enough I finally registered it and rode it for several years but then I bought a very low mileage SP1000 and found that at the end of the day that was a much more enjoyable *everyday* bike. Since I was no longer using the little hot-rod I ended up wrecking it out and essentially gave large lumps of it away. I still have the carilos if anyone wants to build their own short stroker and the ZD gearbox is on loan in the USA.

Everything I attepted to do with that bike was designed to be simple, minimallist and, yes, elegant.

Paul posts here from time to time. His bike IS outstanding. every time I see a picture of it a bit of wee escapes :mrgreen:

Pete
 
Re: CARC/Shaft vs. Chain drive chatter

pete roper said:
Back in the '90's I couldn't afford ro register a bike, certainly not my Guzzi. Kids, Mortgage, interest rates that went up to nearly 20% at times. It just wasn't a happening thing. I DID though spend the better part of that decade building my Guzzi into a short stroke hot-rod. 70mm crank, timing gears, 4mm over Carilo rods, 90mm forged pistons, mid-valve heads modified to suit the pistons and give a 10:1 compression ratio, (I wanted it to run happily on crap gas.) heavily lightened flywheel, 40mm carbs, Straight cut gearbox etc,etc. It made 84 RWHP at 9,800 RPM but if you ran it there for long it would torch its big ends through oil problems due to the pump cavitating. It was a lovely little thing and when I was financial enough I finally registered it and rode it for several years but then I bought a very low mileage SP1000 and found that at the end of the day that was a much more enjoyable *everyday* bike. Since I was no longer using the little hot-rod I ended up wrecking it out and essentially gave large lumps of it away. I still have the carilos if anyone wants to build their own short stroker and the ZD gearbox is on loan in the USA.

Everything I attepted to do with that bike was designed to be simple, minimallist and, yes, elegant.

Paul posts here from time to time. His bike IS outstanding. every time I see a picture of it a bit of wee escapes :mrgreen:

Pete
I love these kind of stories Peter,the search for elegance and purity in design and engineering.A set of H beam Carrillo's is almost to pretty to install in an engine.A perfect example of what I mean,beauty and function come together.
Like the feel of handling a Titanium fastener...so tactile.I think I'd better stop now.
Ciao
 
Re: CARC/Shaft vs. Chain drive chatter

lucky phil said:
I love these kind of stories Peter,the search for elegance and purity in design and engineering.A set of H beam Carrillo's is almost to pretty to install in an engine.A perfect example of what I mean,beauty and function come together.
Like the feel of handling a Titanium fastener...so tactile.I think I'd better stop now.
Ciao

The unfortunate thing with Carillos is that they are quite often not finished very well. My set of 4mm overs were a thou out of round on the big ends. They are not the only set I've seen with this problem from new. Perhaps I was just unlucky, several times......

Pete
 
Re: CARC/Shaft vs. Chain drive chatter

Given the opportunity, just a brain fart question: If a good deal Griso 850 is found, is it too much fuss to go a short stroker way boring it out? Much more than a set of pistons? Worth it or the gains (possible worse mpg costs included) make choosing the 1100 a more logical option? Much different character than the 1100 for everyday/touring use?
 
Re: CARC/Shaft vs. Chain drive chatter

pete roper said:
lucky phil said:
I love these kind of stories Peter,the search for elegance and purity in design and engineering.A set of H beam Carrillo's is almost to pretty to install in an engine.A perfect example of what I mean,beauty and function come together.
Like the feel of handling a Titanium fastener...so tactile.I think I'd better stop now.
Ciao

The unfortunate thing with Carillos is that they are quite often not finished very well. My set of 4mm overs were a thou out of round on the big ends. They are not the only set I've seen with this problem from new. Perhaps I was just unlucky, several times......

Pete
Wow Peter I'm surprised by that,and a little disturbed.I always thought I could guarantee Carrillos would be spot on.
ciao
 
Having a shaft drive is 1 of the reasons I bought a Guzzi. It seemed like I was forever adjusting and oiling the chain and cleaning the rear wheel on my previous bike, a Triumph Sprint ST 1050. In hindsight, I should have done myself a favour and installed a scotch oiler the day I bought it. Now, I just ride and change the oil at service time. No worries. As for being less efficient, I could not care less, my 1200 Sport has torque to spare. I do like the belt drives on Harleys, I think that is their best feature.

Cheers Mark.
 
Mark_Sassafras said:
Having a shaft drive is 1 of the reasons I bought a Guzzi. .... As for being less efficient, I could not care less

If I remember well (adding some words of my own), Dr.John was stating that his bike's shaft had pretty steady friction losses of about 12% while the new chains (O-ring?) of his racing opponents started at about 8% and were constantly expanding as they were wearing down up to 20% or so when used up. The shaft losses on the other hand, are pretty constant until parts of it wear down - then losses sharply jump and slacks appear. So he was having pretty consistent transmission losses throughout his endurance races while the opponents suffered at the final stages.
This went for endurance races 20 years ago...
Maybe other guys can chime in other interesting comparative data.
 
Thought this thread was a mute point, but had to have my two bobs worth.
Most of the 40 bikes I've owned have been chain drive, owned 6 Guzzis, 3 Hondas and 2 Yamahas with shaft drives.

My reasons for owning a Guzzi have nothing to do with the drive train, its just part of the job lot.

If I wanted to go serious racing I would probably buy a CB/GSX/R1, but they are like arseholes .........everybody's got one.

I love Guzzi's because they are different from the norm, sideways engine, external crankcase webs, push rod, shaft drive etc. I'm not part of the "herd" mentality so they suite me just fine. I love their simple engineering like the original linked brake system, it worked great, especially over wet mountain roads. Compare that with the complexity of Honda's system on the VFR800, something like 18 hoses and 14 bleeder valves.

In todays world the shaft may no longer compare with the efficiency of a chain drive system, but it is part of Guzzi's trademark and I will be happy to keep it as it is. My CARC rides 100% better than my old Tonti.

One day we will have ceramic coated carbon fibre gears with titanium splines and twin overhead foxtails, and that'll f*&k 'em right up. But until then I wont compete in the WSBK championship. OK
 
I hate chain drive. Dirty, noisy, constant need for adjustment. I love shaft drive. Clean, quiet, no adjustments needed.
Nice zombie thread resurrection.
Fun reading stuff from so long ago.
I like shaft drive, especially on bikes like Guzzi's and some BMW's where the crank spins side to side. That makes for a very direct and simple shaft drive set up. On other bikes you have to have a second set of gears to convert the engines rotation to shaft rotation, and that is less good from an engineering standpoint.
To make a Guzzi chain drive basically requires moving the gearset that converts the shaft rotation to the wheels rotation up to the output of the transmission. I have seen it done, and for a racebike it makes sense. But for a streetbike I think the standard Guzzi shaft drive layout works pretty well. I am glad to see Guzzi take steps to lighten the shaft drive gears and parts. That is the biggest weak point to shaft drive, unsprung weight.
Now, if they would just build a modern MGS01......
 
Fast forward to 2019, and I am shocked that belts were not mentioned!
Two things will kill chain final drives are -
1. They are an OH+S nightmare with exposed machine parts.
2. Noise pollution, on some super quiet tourers all you can hear when riding behind them is chain whirr.
As noise regs march into the 2020's the old silent shaft just may survive.
Chris.
 
I had belt drive on a Buell. It worked well enough. Way less maintenance than a chain and better performance than a shaft. But you can have issues with belt drive on higher performance machines, as there is only so much power a belt drive system can handle without being huge. The Buell was perfect for it, Most touring bikes would also work great with a belt. But shaft drive probably works slightly better for them.
 
My Victory Cross Tour (1750cc loads of torque and around 850 to 900 lb bike) is belt drive & I have no complaints.
I replaced it at 70,000 miles (About $400.00) altho the local Vic wrench head said I was foolish because they are going 100K.
I'm not an easy rider so the belt & pulleys have got a good workout with me.

Shaft or Belt for me.
 
I have had the pleasure of owning both chain drive and shaft drive machines. They both have their advantages and disadvantages for sure.
But as for my CARC driven motorcycle in which I now own. And especially after a fresh pour of gear oil. I have never had a more buttery smooth shifting transfer of torque at my fingertips. Whether owned or borrowed in my lifetime. It suits my style of riding and will remain so, probably till the end.....
 
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