V7 II ENGINE FAILURES & CLUTCH ADJUST NOTICE!

[Midnite]

He explained and showed me that it was not that thrust washers were not installed, but that the crankshafts themselves were machined out of spec (undersized) badly enough that the thrust washers could move out of position, blocking the oil passage and causing catastrophic wear on the washer. This rapidly allowed additional lateral play which caused the clutch to keep going out of adjustment since the whole crankshaft was basically migrating backwards in the block as the washer or even block itself (if the washer fell completely out of place) was ground away.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting, Kev. This explains the Piaggio rep's rebuttal of my characterization of the problem (missing thrust washers), and syncs up more with the description that I got from the service manager who just replaced my V7ii engine (he described is as a "crankshaft problem" that Piaggio is aware of).

Still wondering what you all think about the safety of running the 'factory fill' 10-50 Castrol as I noted above... safe for the first 600 miles, or should I dump it and replace with 10-60 for break-in? Does it matter?

 

[scottmastrocinque]

In your climate, 10-50 vs 10-60, no appreciable difference.

Leave it alone.

 

[JCole]

Add my bike to the list. I just got the call from the dealer over in Atlanta - he tried to lift my spirits by saying a new engine was only going to run me around $2,700 and there are seven of them available...in Italy. Despite the bike's low mileage, since I am the second owner and the PO has no service records, the dealer is saying he feels like MG won't provide any warranty support.

Screw you MG.

VIN: ZGULWUB20GM200099
Engine Number: who knows...the bike is in pieces six hours away.

 

[Vagrant]

Get on the phone to Piaggio service 212-380-4400 and or go to their US website and contact them directly. You should only have to pay labor and oil.

 

[V700Steve]

I would ask them to fix your engine, no waiting for a motor. The 2 wear plates are $16.7 each Same parts on crank forever. I've done 2 V65's and a V50, it's not a bad job.

 

[Midnite]

Add my bike to the list. I just got the call from the dealer over in Atlanta - he tried to lift my spirits by saying a new engine was only going to run me around $2,700 and there are seven of them available...in Italy. Despite the bike's low mileage, since I am the second owner and the PO has no service records, the dealer is saying he feels like MG won't provide any warranty support.

Screw you MG.

VIN: ZGULWUB20GM200099
Engine Number: who knows...the bike is in pieces six hours away.

Did your engine seize? If so, I’d definitely follow up w/Piaggio to see if you can work something out. They covered my replacement (except labor), but I had all service records. It’ll take some work on your part regardless for sure.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

First let me say that I do not own a V7 of any kind.

Also, I am not an attorney or an attorney spokesman.

This being said, I have seen more than one successful action against Piaggio / Moto Guzzi under the 1975 landmark ruling of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

In both cases, Moto Guzzi tried to not pay for repairs to engines that had been damaged due to well known manufacturing defects.

In both cases, the owners were in a state where there were only a couple of dealers, with the nearest being well over 500 miles away.

Due to this distance, it was impractical and unreasonable for the manufacturer to try and insist on a strict dealer maintenance only requirement for providing any relief under their written and implied warranty. The burden placed upon the owner was considered excessive and also requiring dealer maintenance to maintain a warranty is illegal in every state of the USA.

Both owners had records of maintenance and receipts, either from themselves or independent repair shops. This was more than adequate proof of maintenance under the law.

Motor vehicles are covered under what is called an implied warranty of merchantability, which means that the vehicle in question, was sold as a transportation motor vehicle, and therefore it is expected to perform as any other vehicle in that category is expected to perform in the real world. Failure to do so, is a breach of implied trust between the manufacturer and the owner.

In both cases, the individuals contacted attorneys who were well versed in these matters, who drafted very specific letters to PIaggio, threatening a very real lawsuit, of which the law clearly provides for attorneys fees for said action. Piaggio backed down immediately because they knew they would LOSE IN COURT. In court, the manufacturer has the burden of proof to establish that the owner failed to do basic maintenance and care, or that they did something specific that the manufacturer can establish as a fact, to cause the ultimate failure of the engine. This is a very hard thing to do and the manufacturers know it. If they are going to accuse an owner of impropriety, they had better be damn sure they can prove it beyond any doubt.

Historically, courts and/or juries do not take kindly at all to manufacturers who try and weasle away from obvious failures of their products to deliver a reasonable level of merchantability, and try and invalidate warranties or even if out of warranty, a vehicle which obviously suffered a very premature failure due to manufacturing issues. Motors that grenade at a couple thousand miles, are prime examples of this.

Now I also believe that you get more being sweet, than sour, and kindness and restraint with Piaggio usually gets you more than the hard line approach.

However if you have a dead motorcycle, and you have reached a dead end or wall in this, I would seriously consult an attorney experienced in this type of law. It would be worth the cost of a drafted letter to get some resolution from the manufacturer. Also, you may wish to push the issue in court and seek monetary damages, This would depend upon your attorneys skills and knowledge I guess.

I don't believe anybody should be screwed with a busted motorcycle due to clear manufacturing issues. That's just wrong on every level.

I don't have any further information to give you, and I cannot guide you to an attorney. I can only share with you what I know to have happened.

Maybe this info might be helpful.

 

[JCole]

I appreciate the advice, and the hope it gives me...because I really don't want to sleep on the couch when my wife finds out.

Thankfully my engine didn't seize while I was riding. After a few minutes of riding, it was spewing oil from the bottom of the crankcase. At first, the dealer couldn't feel any movement on the clutch, so they assumed it was probably a seal that was allowing oil to leak into the gearbox. But once they opened it, it was obvious the crank was punching through the case. I told them to go ahead and start a warranty claim.

Does anybody have an idea how long it takes for MG to respond to the claim, and whether or not I will be able to communicate with them directly?

 

[scottmastrocinque]

I will give you some unsolicited advice based upon experience.

It is always better to have the dealer represent your side of the equation. Any dealer worth their salt, should be the advocate for the end user, always, unless there is obvious foul play or abuse.

The only time to try and get directly into the fracas with the manufacturer, is when the dealer is not advocating for you or has given up.

It is not uncommon for the manufacturer's service director to take up to 2 weeks to get an answer. They may ask for photos, or a teardown inspection, and in some cases, they may even come to the dealership for a physical inspection. Almost all of the people in these positions, are seasoned mechanics in their own right. Most also have the authority to thumbs up or down on their own, and believe me, they are much more likely to give into a pleasant customer, as opposed to an obnoxious and aggressive one. Back in my BMW days, the fastest surefire way to get nothing out of Jed Webster, the Service Director on the West Coast at the time, was to verbally assault him. He would cut you off at the knees in about 2 seconds flat.

Play very nice with your dealership service writer. He is your best ally in this battle.

 

[Vagrant]

The Atlanta dealer has replaced many of these self destructed engines and appears to have a good relationship with Piaggio. He needs to call them and say "I've got another just like the two sitting on my floor now" customer will pay the labor if you eat the engine. That should work. I found both they and Piaggio easy to work with. PS, a free lunch under the table is nice too!

 

[JCole]

Great news! MG is going to replace the engine! Robert over at Vespa Marietta is amazing. Hopefully, I will have the bike back within a couple of months.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

It is always better to have the dealer represent your side of the equation. Any dealer worth their salt, should be the advocate for the end user, always..

Congratulations JCole. Well done.

Being soft and polite will get many doors opened for you that hard and aggressive will slam shut faster than you can imagine...

 

[Vagrant]

"Ask and you shall receive"!

 

[Midnite]

Great news! MG is going to replace the engine! Robert over at Vespa Marietta is amazing. Hopefully, I will have the bike back within a couple of months.

Great news indeed. Congratulations! Good times ahead.

 

[JC3]

Great news! MG is going to replace the engine! Robert over at Vespa Marietta is amazing. Hopefully, I will have the bike back within a couple of months.

J, I am writing you as it appears that you were given the thumbs up on an engine replacement just last month. My wife and I had a conversation with our dealer yesterday after she had her clutch pushrod and bearing replaced (part numbers 2A000376, GU14086000, GU20085720) on her 2016 V7 II Special at 10,431 miles. It has exhibited all the difficulties with finding neutral and needing frequent clutch adjustments. The conversation was less than candid but we were told that there are no more V7II replacement engines. We were also told that although their system says the bearings that support the crank can be ordered, there are none in the U.S. From their experience they told us that they could be discontinued at any time as that has happened with other parts in the past. I'm leaving out a lot of detail for now but my question to you is did get approval for a replacement engine in February 2022? Thank you.

 

[JC3]

Thread started by our friend Steve below... if you're having issues with your V7 regarding your clutch working correctly, be sure that the adjustment is closely/frequently monitored. On some V7s (one 2014, but mostly 2016 V7 II Stones) motors are being warranty replaced due to missing crank thrust bearings from the factory. Below is a video on how much incorrect movement the crankshaft has before it seizes... this should not have barely any movement to the eye when correct.
PDFs on both measuring crank end float and proper lever adjustment below. If your checks OK, you should still monitor and frequently adjust the clutch lever/cable free-play, as it can lead to an early demise of the throw-out bearing and push-rod assembly.
Please post yours by replying to this thread if you have had your motor replaced because of this issue.
Those affected listed below:

ZGULWUB20GM200099 - Engine #? @JCole - Georgia
ZGULWUA01EM200223 - Engine # 018044 @Erik Green - NYC
ZGULWUB05GM200257 - @emab - Georgia
ZGULWUB07GM200258 - @RedHawk47 - Dan
ZGULWUB07GM200339 - Engine # ?? 15000 @Spumoni - Upstate NY
ZGULWUB01GM200353 - @Moto_Max - SoCal
ZGULWUB09GM200357 - @MarkAWallace - Las Vegas
ZGULWUB02GM200393 - Steve S - SoCal
ZGULWUB07GM200499 - @frnco
ZGULWUB0?GM200525 - Engine # ?? 017215 @Midnite - NorCal - WILL UPDATE
ZGULWUB05GM200548 - Engine # AN 016940 - Shannon M - SoCal

My wife has a 2016 V7II Special with 10,431 miles on it. The clutch engagement rod, needle roller thrust bearing, and clutch thrust bearing support were just replaced. The bike has always had a hard pull clutch and it's difficult to find neutral once it heats up. Adjusting the cable helped some but there was about two threads of adjustment left at the lever when we brought it in for repair. They utilized the MG provided dial gauge to check her crankshaft and it was "just out of spec". The mechanic said he didn't have a lot of confidence in the tool as the reading seems to vary after repeating the test. I'm concerned about the possibility of a seizure on this motor.

Todd, I was told by my dealer yesterday that MG has no more V7II motors for warranty replacement. Have you heard this? I see no one in the forum has mentioned this yet.

In lieu of replacing the motor, it was suggested that the crankshaft bearing/washers (part number GU27066460) would need to be replaced. After some research it was determined that there were none of these parts available in the U.S. system.
The dealer said it showed that the washer/bearings could still be ordered but that often times when there are none in the U.S. system that can be a prelude to the part being discontinued permanently.

They won't take it in on a trade without disassembling the engine at our expense to assess the situation as they have to know 100% that it is sound before they can sell it to someone else. The dealer recommendation was for her to"just ride it".

If there is indeed a batch of crankshafts machined out of spec, I don't see why replacing those bearings would do anything but extend the time before damage was done again.

I wrote to J Cole in this forum to confirm that his dealer is putting a new motor in his bike as of February of this year. Did he get the last one? I have not heard back from him yet.

 

[JC3]

Thread started by our friend Steve below... if you're having issues with your V7 regarding your clutch working correctly, be sure that the adjustment is closely/frequently monitored. On some V7s (one 2014, but mostly 2016 V7 II Stones) motors are being warranty replaced due to missing crank thrust bearings from the factory. Below is a video on how much incorrect movement the crankshaft has before it seizes... this should not have barely any movement to the eye when correct.
PDFs on both measuring crank end float and proper lever adjustment below. If your checks OK, you should still monitor and frequently adjust the clutch lever/cable free-play, as it can lead to an early demise of the throw-out bearing and push-rod assembly.
Please post yours by replying to this thread if you have had your motor replaced because of this issue.
Those affected listed below:

ZGULWUB20GM200099 - Engine #? @JCole - Georgia
ZGULWUA01EM200223 - Engine # 018044 @Erik Green - NYC
ZGULWUB05GM200257 - @emab - Georgia
ZGULWUB07GM200258 - @RedHawk47 - Dan
ZGULWUB07GM200339 - Engine # ?? 15000 @Spumoni - Upstate NY
ZGULWUB01GM200353 - @Moto_Max - SoCal
ZGULWUB09GM200357 - @MarkAWallace - Las Vegas
ZGULWUB02GM200393 - Steve S - SoCal
ZGULWUB07GM200499 - @frnco
ZGULWUB0?GM200525 - Engine # ?? 017215 @Midnite - NorCal - WILL UPDATE
ZGULWUB05GM200548 - Engine # AN 016940 - Shannon M - SoCal

Todd, do you have any way for me to contact J Cole on this list? I have asked him a question on this forum but I've had no response.
Thank you,

John

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Todd, do you have any way for me to contact J Cole on this list? I have asked him a question on this forum but I've had no response.
Thank you,

John

He does not, I’m sure.

Did you try starting a conversation with him? It’s the letter icon at the top of the page? He may have just been a hit and run, drive by poster.

I’m also pretty sure that he (JCole) would not know anything about Moto Guzzi’s current engine inventory, at least not reliably.

Also, I’m not able to figure out why or where you have decided that there are a “ a batch of crankshafts machined out of spec”.

Based upon what? KevM’s anecdotal claim?

This is highly unlikely. Besides, unless I had, in my had, on my machinists block, a brand new crankshaft that I could dimension out entirely, I would not believe that a builder of crankshafts screwed them up! Saying so to a Piaggio rep or dealer, based upon here say of one drive-by post from KevM, is sure to get you a negative response.

Crankshafts are CNC machined to be identical and I’m positive they were checked and rechecked in the manufacturing process. 100% absolutely sure of it.

I think what is happening here is that you have a bike with 10k miles+, outside of it’s initial 2 year warranty that is exhibiting some issues? I’m not sure what is really going on with you and your motorcycle.

Perhaps you need to fill in the blanks with details?

 

[GTM®]

As Scott says above, message him, though I doubt he’ll have more to offer other than what he posted already.
The first post of this thread gives a range of VIN #’s where the engine was assembled without the crank shim bearings. The “end float” of the crankshaft should be minimal, which is what the PDF there also outlines using the factory measuring tool. I have a video there also showing one that has massively excessive end float, in which these shim bearings were not present. The motors that didn’t have them locked up solid early in their life (low miles). If you have more than 1~3k miles, I expect this is not the issue. Clutch adjustment and clutch abuse caused by misadjustment or the rider is likely the culprit IME.

 

[JC3]

He does not, I’m sure.

Did you try starting a conversation with him? It’s the letter icon at the top of the page? He may have just been a hit and run, drive by poster.

I’m also pretty sure that he (JCole) would not know anything about Moto Guzzi’s current engine inventory, at least not reliably.

Also, I’m not able to figure out why or where you have decided that there are a “ a batch of crankshafts machined out of spec”.

Based upon what? KevM’s anecdotal claim?

This is highly unlikely. Besides, unless I had, in my had, on my machinists block, a brand new crankshaft that I could dimension out entirely, I would not believe that a builder of crankshafts screwed them up! Saying so to a Piaggio rep or dealer, based upon here say of one drive-by post from KevM, is sure to get you a negative response.

Crankshafts are CNC machined to be identical and I’m positive they were checked and rechecked in the manufacturing process. 100% absolutely sure of it.

I think what is happening here is that you have a bike with 10k miles+, outside of it’s initial 2 year warranty that is exhibiting some issues? I’m not sure what is really going on with you and your motorcycle.

Perhaps you need to fill in the blanks with details?

Scott, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I realize I've been pretty wound up about this whole issue. The way our situation has played out locally is the primary reason. After bringing in the bike to have the clutch engagement rod, needle roller thrust bearing, and clutch thrust bearing support replaced, we were informed that that the bike was going to need new engine cases. You can imagine our reaction. On a bike with 10k?! There is a lack of transparency over this (these) issue(s) with the V7II engines. All companies want to avoid the dreaded recall, so issuing technical bulletins to their dealers helps kick the problem down the road but leaves the owners in the dark. So I asked if we could trade the bike in and they won't take it on trade without us paying to disassemble it to find and fix the issue(s). This bike has been cared for by the book. I've been riding since 1970 and have had 10 motorcycles so I'm not new to this sport. There has to be a manufacturing defect or parts that are failing prematurely to cause all these issues.