SOLVED ... V9 Roamer Oil LEAK, Fork Mess Repair

[Larry Malinoski]

Below is my fork original seal "blow out". New seals went in yesterday and that test ride of a couple miles went well. This morning the wife jumped on the back and we went for a ride and shopping. Maybe a mile and a half from the house and I have been watching that front left fork. It was dry. YEAH! Then we ran over some rumble strips put there for flagman controlling a one-way construction area. Even asked the wife if that bump was bad. She said "a little but better than before". I had lightened the preload on the rear shocks.

Maybe 1/4 mile past that rumble strip I got that bad feeling. Slowed and stopped at the flag man. Oh my god!



Immediately pulled a "U" turn and limped home. The above picture was done as I stopped. SOB.



Again we and the bike are literally covered in oil. That oil is burning off the headers and all over everything in just maybe 2 miles. From me watching I can see the oil being pushed up in waves as the wind of us moving pushes the leaking or pouring oil up the fork tube. When you stop it then pours back down.

Pushed the SOB in the garage, got on a Harley and did the shopping and lunch. Three hours later I wiped the forks down and cleaned up a bit. Then I popped off the dust seal to see where the mess was coming from. All the while I am expecting a major disruption in the brand new seal or how it is seated.

DRY. The seal is in place along with the clip holding it at the top.


That is not possible. The oil did not come from above. I looked. It is pouring out from the dust seal and must be coming around this new seal, just like what happened originally. Well I got an idea and pushed the dust seal back above the slider and started my best pushing fork compressions to make it leak and show me where.


Look how far up I was able to compress the fork and push up on that dust seal. Time after time until I was exhausted, I compressed those forks.

DRY!

Went back at it again because there has to be a major failure somewhere.

DRY! Not even a hint of a leak on the seal or even around the seat in the slider. What the #$%^?

Now I say ...HELP. Anyone have any idea or is this bike "possessed" by the devil?

 

[Larry Malinoski]

Please see my post below; https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/th...ak-was-re-fork-mess-repair.21521/#post-173004 -- as this was NOT a fork leak after all... however, you can see my endeavor below...

Below is the mess that I had riding with the wife last week. The fork did not leak - it poured. Stupid me, I kept on riding home for about 40 miles with a serious covering of oil all over us, both tires, the entire bike etc. The solution is a bit puzzling but quite simple.

Sourced the seals from MG Cycle, thanks to a tip on this forum. After reading the manual it looked like a big production so after these came in I opted to allow friends try to do the fix at a little Harley Shop. First thing to note is the seals are for 41 mm forks, just like Harley ones except the MG seals are a little bit smaller in OUTSIDE diameter. Doubt the readily-available Harley seals could be made to fit. You should seek out the proper MG seals.


Neither real looked damaged so why did one completely blow apart. Both were properly seated with a retainer and the one that blew apart was actually dry inside with no visible oil above the seal between the outer dust seal and retainer. Back to that at the end.

First step is to nearly forget what the "book" says. It tells you there is a bushing that prevents the lowers from coming off the fork tubes in place in the triple trees. BULL#@$%. Remove the fender, remove the wheel - carefully unplugging the ABS sensor. No issues. Take a long 8MM allen and loosed the bolt holding the lower to the tube. Let the oil drain into a pan and pull down.

Here's proof they slide right off. Just "pop" the dust cap off and slide it up the tube. SEE!

Retainer clip and seal come right out as normally expected. Lots and lots of looking and no marks on the tubes and no marks on the seals. I thought a lip of the "blown" one was turned in but not sure as I touched things and oil deposited on it confused me. Why the pouring?

Replaced the old seals with new, installed the retaining clips but filling it the right amount might be an issue. People here said do 400 cc's of 15 wt. oil. The book says to have it filled 120 mm. below the top of the tubes. Bit of a glitch here so OFF and OUT came the fork tubes. Not hard to do at all. Follow dimensions and torque in the book or just use common sense.



In a vice a couple of discoveries were made. First one is the PROPER amount of fluid is 380CC's. Take off the cap - LEAVE THE SPRING IN TO TAKE UP OIL SPACE ( something not mentioned in the book ) and pour in the oil. push the tube up and down. You could fill without the spring for the plunging of the fork that distributes the oil. Measure the oil level below the tube top to get a 5 1/4" air gap to the oil WITH SPRING IN.

If you did the measurement with spring out, you just overfilled the oil. Could it be that was the case and when we hit some nasty bumps and railroad tracks the overfilled lowers and tubes pushed up the lips in one seal allowing huge amounts of oil to get above the seal?


To measure you really have to have things vertical. Leaving the forks in the triple tree will not allow you to measure the air gap at the top BUT .... If you have faith in two things I tell you, save the trouble of removal. First is to not take the tubes out. Second is to remove the caps under spring tension and be able to replace them on the bike. Do NOT try that on a Harley or probably most other bikes. On my V9 Roamer you can easily push down on the cap, compress the spring and screw the cap back on after filling with just one hand. It is so easy.



Sure is nice to know the fill capacity and do without the measurement and fork tube removal. Mine was 380cc's. NO MORE or the dangerous mess I got into could be in your future.

Assembly is simple and the test ride after that was fun. Still some oil from dripping trapped between the exhaust and muffler cover to smoke off even after a major solvent washing and cleaning.

Hope it helps you deal with any fork seal issues you might have with your V9.

 

[john zibell]

Never said you couldn't remove the slider because of the bushing. What I said was if you put new seals in then slide it onto the tube, you could cut the seal.

 

[Larry Malinoski]

Never said you couldn't remove the slider because of the bushing. What I said was if you put new seals in then slide it onto the tube, you could cut the seal.

Did not remember well, no surprise. Appreciate your work on the forum. That little split ring bushing slid through the seal, at least on mine, Seems to be undersized to the fork diameter at the end.. One of the pictures above could be zoomed to see.

Now the only way to measure the air gap is to remove the tubes as they have to be vertical. If the spring were longer or made to put the cap under more tension, you would have to remove the tubes. There might be after-market springs or different factory ones that do require major pushing to get the cap threaded. Guessing you could first unscrew the caps and see how hard your spring is before deciding to do the fork removal.

Hardest thing is loosening the bolts under the sliders. 8MM allens and LONG ones are needed. Had to use an impact gun to break them both loose with a second person locking the sliders together so they do not turn. They were way over tightened.

Going out for a test ride later this morning. Still a bit baffling to not find a definite cause of that fork lunching all that oil so fast.

 

[V700Steve]

Glad you got it done. It may have been over filled at factory, who knows. Somethings you never find out 'why' this all happened. I worked w/a wrench that was always trying to figure stuff out.
I have moved on with all that, my job is to fix it. Not my job to figure out why, who, or whatever.
You make more $ that way, it's more productive.
I tell customers of Guzzi if you wanna know why call their 800 number & ask them.

 

[Raven]

Burn her! Burn the witch!

 

[Larry Malinoski]

Burn her! Burn the witch!

It burns itself. Doesn't need me. When that oil gets into the airstream much falls directly on the header, head, my pants while more goes up over the front brake, wheel, headstock, windshield, my face and back down the entire side of the bike. The smoke from the burning oil is a bit unsettling as you slow down. Today was not so bad as we only had a couple miles to get back home. Last time I rode this thing we had a solid 40 miles to get home and that was quite the misadventure.

Talked with the guy that I had work with me on the repair yesterday. He says this is impossible but does have something to try. Switch the fork legs and see if it is that fork. It sure looks perfect with not a hint of a mark. I think there is something wrong with the lower itself but the seat seems perfect also.

Don't hint that I am not only into an oil bath but "took a bath" on a bike that could be a total loss. Never ever heard of anything this grevious happening and now it has repeated itself.

 

[Larry Malinoski]

Going to have to find their 800 # based on my repeat of the mess this morning.

 

[V700Steve]

That's why they have a warranty.

Did it blow out again? Could be a porous slider maybe, makes more sense than steel tube.

 

[GTM®]

Only time I've seen anything like this is if it was overfilled and/or the fork seal installed inverted. Not suggesting it's what you did, but it can happen.

 

[Larry Malinoski]

That's why they have a warranty.

Did it blow out again? Could be a porous slider maybe, makes more sense than steel tube.

I do not. Bought the bike used and later found i=out it was on consignment. Dealer is Haus of Trikes and Bikes in Fort Meyers, Fl. They are 120 miles south of me. Bike is a 2017 and had 9,000 miles on it when I bought it. Calls to their service department are always met with a recording and promise to call back. No call backs happen. Dealer there also has engine guards paid for they ordered and have not arrived.

 

[Larry Malinoski]

Only time I've seen anything like this is if it was overfilled and/or the fork seal installed inverted. Not suggesting it's what you did, but it can happen.

Spring side down is how they were and how I installed the new ones. Right side no problem before or now. Just the fork lower that holds the brake assembly.

Look at my Part III post. After just a 1/2 mile slow ride after cleaning up the mess this morning I got oil spitting out all over again. Immediately took out the dust seal and looked. Dry???

Removed the clip holding the seal and ran a Q tip on the back of the seal outside edge. Looks like the fork lower itself is with out of round or oversize or something. I think the seals do not seal on the back outside edge. That might explain why residual oil runs back into the lower showing no evidence of there ever being a leak.

Contacted Moto Guzzi Customer Support on this one. Cannot find any source of buying a new lower fork assembly so far. Bike is dangerous and unridable right now.

 

[GTM®]

Cannot find any source of buying a new lower fork assembly so far.

Fork lowers only are $483 per side, forks complete are $600 per side, or both forks (complete) with lower triple and stem is $597. If serious to purchase, email me direct; Info @GuzziTech.com or I can put it online for purchase.

 

[Larry Malinoski]

After the new fork seals were put in yesterday the couple mile test ride seemed fine. This morning the wife and I went out for a good test. We made it two miles. I looked down and ... OH my god! Oil all over the left fork and spitting up. I turned around.

We limped home and the instant I could get off the bike I took this picture.


Seriously - four miles total on the new seals and the same bad side broke loose again.

We had shopping to do so I wiped down the nasty stuff and pushed the bike into a garage. We spent the next three hours shopping using a Harley. Soon as I got home I pulled the dust slider up. Sure expected to find a mess on the seal or the seal out of position. Last time it was a shock to find nothing wrong and the old seals looking good. This time, the same shock.



Dry. Where did the oil go in the three hours I was gone?

Cleaned up and washed the bike with solvent and water. No oil outside at all. Then re-set the dust seal on top of the fork but not installed. Pushed the forks down time after time until I was exhausted. Then did it again. Look how high I was able to push the dust seal up using fork action.



Dry. I could not induce any kind of leak pushing the fork up and down this far. That means it is time for another ride. I re-seated the dust cap and started out. In just a 1/4 mile of relatively smooth ride and never going over 40 mph, I could see oil spitting up. Immediately came back so maybe a total of 1/2 mile and look.



That's a lot of oil for 1/2 a mile going slow with few bumps. I pulled up the dust cap again and ....


DRY??? Obviously the oil drained back down below the seal but how and where? Pulled out the retaining ring, got a Q tip and wiped it along the outside of the seal as there was no evidence of any leaking on the lips around the tubes. At the very back there was evidence of oil coming up and down the back of the lower. That would have come on the OUTSIDE of the seal where it goes into the lower. Note the black paint knocked off that lip from under the dust seal. Not sure that has any significance except to tell me this is not powder coating.



Could the fork lower have invisible damage where the seal seats in the back? Could it be out of round? Would a larger outside diameter 41mm seal work if the lower is damaged or made wrong? Harley 41 mm seals are a bit larger in outside diameter and maybe worth a try.

To be sure I will do another test later this weekend with some attempt to discover exactly where this pouring is coming from. Right now the bike is unridable and dangerous. Already sent pictures and a note to Customer Care Piaggio Group in New York. Wondering if there is any history of a bad lower casting. No clue, if that is the problem, of where to buy a replacement.

All ideas appreciated as this one has me stumped big time.

 

[Larry Malinoski]

Fork lowers only are $483 per side, forks complete are $600 per side, or both forks (complete) with lower triple and stem is $597. If serious to purchase, email me direct; Info @GuzziTech.com or I can put it online for purchase.

Soon as I get a firm handle on exactly what the problem is with that side ( the brake side), I could contact you on that.

Appreciate the information.

 

[GTM®]

Soon as I get a firm handle on exactly what the problem is with that side ( the brake side), I could contact you on that. Appreciate the information.

Welcome, and I do have two bent forks (tubes only), which I'd be happy to part and sell you, but of course it's a risky venture as they have been in an accident. Same as before, email (only) if interested.

 

[Larry Malinoski]

Welcome, and I do have two bent forks (tubes only), which I'd be happy to part and sell you, but of course it's a risky venture as they have been in an accident. Same as before, email (only) if interested.

Tubes seemed perfect. Both sides. It is the left lower that may have a bad seat for the seal.

 

[martinpd]

This is probably not the problem but when you get everything back together loosen the front axle pinch bolts and bounce the front end a couple times then retighten. This will align the fork tubes. I’m wondering if they were out of alignment and binding enough when riding (under load) it might distort the lowers enough to leak under pressure. As I said it’s probably not the cause but won’t hurt to check and be sure. Stranger things and all.

 

[Vagrant]

This is an interesting conundrum!
If it was sold on consignment what are the chances the first owner was aware of this, a life threatening fault. Any recourse in Fl. law?

 

[Larry Malinoski]

OK - I eat crow. Multiple plates of it raw. Same can be said for the mechanics and sales people at both a local Harley shop and the Moto Guzzi Dealer in Tampa. They all saw the hideous pouring, tested, played and diagnosed the obvious. In person the obvious escaped them. The worst miss still was me. I was a real ass for missing this.

The color of the oil wall over the fork did not register with me or anyone else. What was bothering me was the continued dry top of the seals during all the testing, both before the seal change and after with the new seals. Put that with the oil covering and I got another idea a couple days ago.

I built a surrounding rag OVER THE FORK, attached with velcro top and bottom . Went for a short ride and sure enough, there was oil ON the rag. There was also a little on the front fender? That makes no sense to me unless......

I cut a large piece of wrapping paper and made a frame to place between the front of the left cylinder and the fork. You could not feel it. You could not see it but there it was. There was a micro HARD spit, like an injection of oil mist coming out of the left cylinder, either the head gasket or valve cover gasket. It was NOT a fork seal issue.

I mean you could not see this spit. With a gloved hand and arm I never felt it either. The higher the rpm, the harder it spit. At idle it was hard to detect even with the paper screen but there it was.

I pulled off the valve cover and there was clearly a teeny crimp or roll in the valve cover gasket. Weeks ago I had done a valve adjustment but was too lazy to remove those covers over the injectors. That made it difficult to put the valve covers back on. Of course I am the man and did it anyway. Must have screwed one side up.

Permatex Ultra Black gasket sealant ( soft version) and removal of the injector covers allowed me to carefully replace things. Wait a day and then torque all down properly. My test ride yesterday showed no sign of an issue. It was a most unpleasant test ride. Unpleasant because I realized I was a complete ass to not recognize the color of that oil all over the fork was a bit golden and not what was in the fork. It was spitting directly on top of the dust seal at the back of the fork and then wind and fork action did the rest. At idle it was not detectable. You had to have more rpm for something to be significant. Even then, I had spent time riding and looking and did not have a clue.

Assume nothing. The word is spelled "ass u me". I feel like a dog pooing bones. Sorry for misleading everyone on the forum. Also a bit sorry for others at the Moto Guzzi shop and that Harley place that were involved. They also must have eaten some of those bones. Thank goodness I can still catch limits of grouper and have some personal respect.