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B11 starting problem... again

3ackok

3ackok

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
149
Location
Baltimore, MD
My Breva was sitting in a garage since we had a major snowstorm on Dec 19. Today I was going to ride it to work. Pushed the start button, heard loud click from starter solenoid, but nothing turned. I had the same problem last year, and I thought that I traced it to a corroded battery terminal. I also thought that I took care of it with cleaning and protective spray. So I measured voltage on the starter terminal going to the battery. It was OK. I removed the starter, grounded it and tried the start button. Starter worked. Installed it back- nothing, but click. Now I'm suspecting the starter solenoid. If conductivity is slightly degraded, it may pass enough current to spin an idle starter, but not enough to turn an engine. I tried to short the solenoid, the starter would spin, but it remained disengaged from the engine. I re-tightened nuts on solenoid terminals, it didn't help. What are my options now? I don't think I saw too many starter related issues on this forum. Is the solenoid serviceable?
 
When you get the 'Click' does the dashboard die and then fire up again? If so it'll simply be that the cold weather and sitting have drained the battery. while it may well have 12+Volts as soon as you get the big current draw from the starter the voltage will drop to below what the ECU deems 'Acceptable'. When that happens the entire system shuts down momentarily and then restarts again once the 4 second start cycle is completed.

Hook it up to a battery charger for a couple of hours or try jumping it off the car.

Pete
 
No, it doesn't do it. Dashboard cycling sometimes happened when I had the battery terminal problem, but not this time. I measured the voltage, it never drops below 11.3 Volts. The only place where I couldn't measure reliably was the output terminal of the starter solenoid because it is painted. 11 Volts should be enough, but I left the bike hooked to a charger anyway, just in case.
This starter was made in France, it can't be too reliable :)
 
3ackok said:
I removed the starter, grounded it and tried the start button. Starter worked. Installed it back- nothing, but click.
Click to expand...

I ran into these symptoms on my V11 Sport where bench testing it seemed fine but then installing the starter would result in a click where you could feel the solenoid on the starter actuating but not turning the motor. After pulling the starter and solenoid and having it consistently work on the bench but not on the bike I noticed that there's a button which the solenoid plunger depresses at the bottom of the plunger travel to fire the starter once the gears are engaged .
This button requires a bit of force to actuate. With the very long path though the wiring harness I wondered if there wasn't perhaps enough voltage drop with the trigger signal to 'soften' the solenoid action enough so it couldn't consistently operate.
I put a 30 amp relay between the trigger lead and the solenoid and got 'fresh' voltage off the battery lead to the starter.
This was a number of months ago and my problem hasn't come back.

For me this was a cheap fix as I had everything on hand and it's not actually changing anything in the stock harness, you're just adding this little relay don at the end of the line.

Worked for me so I thought I should mention it.

johnk
 
3ackok said:
This starter was made in France, it can't be too reliable :)
Click to expand...

Maybe it went on strike? :lol:

Battery volts don't always guarantee it will crank. If the battery won't put out the amps it won't start. You may still have a bad battery.
Think of it this way. If you wire up in series, a bunch of flashlight batteries to read twelve volts, do you think it would crank over a motor?

Just a thought.
 
Modern batteries are very susceptible to being idle. Also when a modern battery fails it is sudden. If it has failed, the bike may not even start with a jump from a car. Since you get the "click" the necessary circuits are functioning. Try the charger as Pete suggested and if it doesn't work replace the battery.
 
OK, it was the battery. When I returned from work the bike started. I found this behavior of the starter rather weird. I have experience troubleshooting similar problems in cars, and the battery has to be seriously discharged for this to happen. I'm well aware that battery voltage can look OK when idle, but power capacity could be diminished. That's why I measured the voltage under load, when the solenoid was engaged. In my experience, if the battery is discharged or bad the voltage drops considerably. I guess that moto European electrics just works a bit different from Japanese car ones.
Thanks a lot for your help. This is what happens when you know the theory, but don't have enough hands-on practice.
 
My Norge did the same thing after sitting for a spell in warm storage. I had a phone charger plugged into the 12 vdc outlet that had a light on it so that is what drained the battery. Turned the key on and let the gauges cycle through, hit the button and click and all goes dead. Put a battery tender on it over night and the next morning all was good. It is a good idea if storing a bike for an extended period of time to hook a battery tender to it to keep everything fully charged. A battery may read out good under no load, but when putting a load on it, such as starting the engine, a half charged battery will not be up to the task.
 
It also never hurts to undo the ground lead(s) from the negative terminal. My bike is now sitting outside in the cold like that, I hope it'll be enough to start her when weather clears up enough to ride to my garage (sadly, even there I don't have a power outlet to keep her on a tender).
 
RJVB said:
It also never hurts to undo the ground lead(s) from the negative terminal. My bike is now sitting outside in the cold like that, I hope it'll be enough to start her when weather clears up enough to ride to my garage (sadly, even there I don't have a power outlet to keep her on a tender).
Click to expand...

Probably not a good idea to try and start without a topping off charge. A day or two before you intend to ride, take the battery out and bring it to where you can charge it. It will save you some problems down the road too.
 
RJVB said:
It also never hurts to undo the ground lead(s) from the negative terminal. My bike is now sitting outside in the cold like that, I hope it'll be enough to start her when weather clears up enough to ride to my garage (sadly, even there I don't have a power outlet to keep her on a tender).
Click to expand...

Sitting outside? In Paris?
Don't worry, the battery along with the rest of the bike will be gone soon enough. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
RJVB said:
My bike is now sitting outside in the cold like that, I hope it'll be enough to start her when weather clears up enough to ride to my garage (sadly, even there I don't have a power outlet to keep her on a tender).
Click to expand...
Why not try a solar charger? You can get them quite cheaply now, with enough power to keep the battery more or less topped up.
 
To both: bike is at my work place, in some sort of "bikeport", protected site with 24/24 surveillance, and lots of shade. Getting the battery out to charge won't be a big issue (if I manage to crawl between mine and my director's RT ;) ), but I gather I'll first simply take a peek with a multimeter, to see how bad things really are!
 
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