Help, 1200 Sport won't start when hot

[PaulJr]

I'm having problems with the 08 1200 Sport. If I take a long ride, then stop for a break, the bike won't turn over. If I catch it in gear it seems to start just fine for the rest of the day. Never have a problem close to home so I can get a ride then pick it up and do some troubleshooting. Everything on the dash looks normal, I've tried stand down and up, in gear and out, clutch in and out, cycle the keyswitch and kill switch. Any ideas would be welcome.

 

[PP-1753]

Paul,

The 1200 Sport - like other Guzzis I believe - has pretty ordinary electrics. I have been down this road so here's a few things to try:
- The battery terminal and leads connection was covered in green crud - I had to scrape this off for a good battery connection;
- The main earthing point (behind the starter motor cover) sometimes is not tight enough. Be careful in tightening it as the thread may shear off in the block and this is a damn right bitch to rectify. I did this and ended up turning some 12mm brass hex bar into the required style but with a longer thread - all good now;

If you have the optional immobiliser/alarm, there may be some other issues. Let me know and we can take it from there...

 

[PaulJr]

Paul,

The 1200 Sport - like other Guzzis I believe - has pretty ordinary electrics. I have been down this road so here's a few things to try:
- The battery terminal and leads connection was covered in green crud - I had to scrape this off for a good battery connection;
- The main earthing point (behind the starter motor cover) sometimes is not tight enough. Be careful in tightening it as the thread may shear off in the block and this is a damn right bitch to rectify. I did this and ended up turning some 12mm brass hex bar into the required style but with a longer thread - all good now;

If you have the optional immobiliser/alarm, there may be some other issues. Let me know and we can take it from there...

Thanks for the suggestions, I tried those things the first time I had the problem without any luck, no immobiliser or alarm.

 

[PP-1753]

Paul, try swapping over the two relays forward and to the right of the battery - there are two the same - one is for lights the other is for the starter. You should be able to hear the relay click when the starter button is pressed, I suspect there is not enough current through the contacts to keep them clean and therefore they may not work correctly.

I know it's not easy to get to but you might try to measure the voltage on the solenoid. I have found this to be sometimes around 8 volts and won't pick up the starter solenoid. If this is the case then the relay is the true culprit - unless your battery is not charging?

 

[GrahamNZ]

Could be a dodgy relay. They are mounted right side, in front of the battery area.

 

[PaulJr]

Paul, try swapping over the two relays forward and to the right of the battery - there are two the same - one is for lights the other is for the starter. You should be able to hear the relay click when the starter button is pressed, I suspect there is not enough current through the contacts to keep them clean and therefore they may not work correctly.

I know it's not easy to get to but you might try to measure the voltage on the solenoid. I have found this to be sometimes around 8 volts and won't pick up the starter solenoid. If this is the case then the relay is the true culprit - unless your battery is not charging?

Battery voltage is holding at 12.2 with key on and 13.6 when running, voltage at solenoid is the same, I don't hear any relay click but my ears are not what they used to be and I'm generally wearing helmet and earplugs when I have the probelm. I think your idea is great, I'll try switching the relays. Thanks

 

[GrahamNZ]

Paul

It's interesting that two of us suggested a possible relay problem in the same minute! The earlier V11 series Guzzis were notorious for giving relay problems and it was wise to replace all the Siemens relays with Bosch ones. Relays are inexpensive so why not just replace yours rather than muck about swapping them around. For a bike to start, more than one relay is often involved, so swapping around isn't necessarily going to work.

 

[PP-1753]

Paul,

In this case there is only one relay between starter button and the solenoid and this is the front one. the one next to it is for the light but is the same type of relay. Swap them over and give it a try when she no go for you...

 

[xenarchi]

Sounds like my B. She never sorted herself out no matter what I tried. Hated it so much I crashed the bike and wrote her off.

 

[john zibell]

Paul, try swapping over the two relays forward and to the right of the battery - there are two the same - one is for lights the other is for the starter. You should be able to hear the relay click when the starter button is pressed, I suspect there is not enough current through the contacts to keep them clean and therefore they may not work correctly.

I know it's not easy to get to but you might try to measure the voltage on the solenoid. I have found this to be sometimes around 8 volts and won't pick up the starter solenoid. If this is the case then the relay is the true culprit - unless your battery is not charging?

Battery voltage is holding at 12.2 with key on and 13.6 when running, voltage at solenoid is the same, I don't hear any relay click but my ears are not what they used to be and I'm generally wearing helmet and earplugs when I have the probelm. I think your idea is great, I'll try switching the relays. Thanks

Paul,

Did you measure the voltage, when hot, on the small wire used to energize the solenoid? You will have to press the starter button to get any voltage reading. If you read the big lug with the thick wire, that is the same as connecting to the battery.

 

[roadscum]

I learned of this problem a few weeks ago when on a road trap to MPH cycles in Houston for some warnanty work. Mike was ware of the issue, it's related to a poor crimp in the wiring harness. They installed a jumper and the problem was solved, warranty issues weer also resolved.. The guys at MPH are the BEST!!!

Regards, Paul

 

[john zibell]

I learned of this problem a few weeks ago when on a road trap to MPH cycles in Houston for some warnanty work. Mike was ware of the issue, it's related to a poor crimp in the wiring harness. They installed a jumper and the problem was solved, warranty issues weer also resolved.. The guys at MPH are the BEST!!!

Regards, Paul

That is great that they solved your problem. Is it possible for you to find out where the bad crimp is and where the jumper is placed (component/pin to component/pin) and let us know? With that information others could replicate your good results.

 

[GrahamNZ]

Paul,
In this case there is only one relay between starter button and the solenoid and this is the front one. the one next to it is for the light but is the same type of relay. Swap them over and give it a try when she no go for you...

Fair enough on a desert island, but swapping relays may not prove that one of them is faulty because relay faults are often intermittent. As I suggested earlier, since they're inexpensive items it's best to replace them.

 

[PaulJr]

I learned of this problem a few weeks ago when on a road trap to MPH cycles in Houston for some warnanty work. Mike was ware of the issue, it's related to a poor crimp in the wiring harness. They installed a jumper and the problem was solved, warranty issues weer also resolved.. The guys at MPH are the BEST!!!

Regards, Paul

I would sure like to know which wire was the problem. I measured voltage on the lug from the starter, could not see any other ones excepting the ground below the lug. Not exactly a great place to try checking and when the bike is starting..... :unsure:

 

[Bill Hagan]

I learned of this problem a few weeks ago when on a road trap to MPH cycles in Houston for some warnanty work. Mike was ware of the issue, it's related to a poor crimp in the wiring harness. They installed a jumper and the problem was solved, warranty issues weer also resolved.. The guys at MPH are the BEST!!!

Regards, Paul

I would sure like to know which wire was the problem. I measured voltage on the lug from the starter, could not see any other ones excepting the ground below the lug. Not exactly a great place to try checking and when the bike is starting..... :unsure:

Think this it: https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/160/4908.html

I have to look into this as in NOW. A wonderful trip to the Virginia rally was marred by numerous non-starts ... all "hot." My ground crew was getting mutinous and one pulled a ham string. I was more bothered by the reactions of "other brands" owners watching, and tried to get my (now pretty much former buds) to push faster. :whistle:

Seriously, am not yet convinced this is not a starter-solenoid issue, but Mike Haven's forgotten more about Guzzis than I'll ever know, and I was asleep in high school science class ... or looking at Marilyn Basham's legs.

Anyway, FWIW, I also find that "fuse B" is sometimes blown, so I carry lots of those little fellas.

Bill

 

[roadscum]

I learned of this problem a few weeks ago when on a road trap to MPH cycles in Houston for some warnanty work. Mike was ware of the issue, it's related to a poor crimp in the wiring harness. They installed a jumper and the problem was solved, warranty issues weer also resolved.. The guys at MPH are the BEST!!!

Regards, Paul

That is great that they solved your problem. Is it possible for you to find out where the bad crimp is and where the jumper is placed (component/pin to component/pin) and let us know? With that information others could replicate your good results.

I'm not sure I'd recognise the jumper. Why not go to the source and give Mike or Davey at MPH a call, then you'll get the right answer.

Regards, Paul

 

[slowpoke]

Hi, I have a Breva 11 that has just started being a bit "temperamental" starting when hot for the second time in it's short life. The first time it happened it was still under warranty so my local dealer had lots of fun trying to trace what is an intermittent fault. I replaced the battery to start with. it was a little tired by then anyway. No difference. I then noticed that if I cooled the starter with water it would start, I was convinced it was the cat on the bike cooking the starter, however I believe the sport has the cat. in the exhaust. The starter was eventually replaced under warranty and I had no further problems untill the weather got warmer again this year. Intermittent starting is back.
i have no idea why this is but my current fix is to have a long wire under the seat and just power the starter directly from the battery. Soon as I get a free morning I am going to wire this permanently with a switch on the bars, just need to be careful and not crank the starter for more than 5secs.
Good Luck
Phil

 

[Bill Hagan]

"long wire under the seat and just power the starter directly from the battery"

That's an interesting field-expedient fix, Phil, and I wish'd I'd thought of it on the road trip to Virginia.

As I said a few posts ago, above, still think the answer is here:

https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/160/4908.html

Headed to grandbaby land in a cage this weekend for a week or so, but plan on making that correctionon return. If this really is the culprit, MG should do a recall. Yes, I know, figure the odds. :whistle:

Bill

 

[john zibell]

Hi, I have a Breva 11 that has just started being a bit "temperamental" starting when hot for the second time in it's short life. The first time it happened it was still under warranty so my local dealer had lots of fun trying to trace what is an intermittent fault. I replaced the battery to start with. it was a little tired by then anyway. No difference. I then noticed that if I cooled the starter with water it would start, I was convinced it was the cat on the bike cooking the starter, however I believe the sport has the cat. in the exhaust. The starter was eventually replaced under warranty and I had no further problems untill the weather got warmer again this year. Intermittent starting is back.
i have no idea why this is but my current fix is to have a long wire under the seat and just power the starter directly from the battery. Soon as I get a free morning I am going to wire this permanently with a switch on the bars, just need to be careful and not crank the starter for more than 5secs.
Good Luck
Phil

I'm not sure that is such a good idea. The 5AM ECU controls the starter once you press the starter button. I'd instead be looking at voltage drop from the starter relay to the starter solenoid. If I bypassed any wire, it would be that one.

 

[slowpoke]

Hi, I have a Breva 11 that has just started being a bit "temperamental" starting when hot for the second time in it's short life. The first time it happened it was still under warranty so my local dealer had lots of fun trying to trace what is an intermittent fault. I replaced the battery to start with. it was a little tired by then anyway. No difference. I then noticed that if I cooled the starter with water it would start, I was convinced it was the cat on the bike cooking the starter, however I believe the sport has the cat. in the exhaust. The starter was eventually replaced under warranty and I had no further problems untill the weather got warmer again this year. Intermittent starting is back.
i have no idea why this is but my current fix is to have a long wire under the seat and just power the starter directly from the battery. Soon as I get a free morning I am going to wire this permanently with a switch on the bars, just need to be careful and not crank the starter for more than 5secs.
Good Luck
Phil

I'm not sure that is such a good idea. The 5AM ECU controls the starter once you press the starter button. I'd instead be looking at voltage drop from the starter relay to the starter solenoid. If I bypassed any wire, it would be that one.

This is true, it I believe turns the starter till the required revs are reached and then operates the injectors, hence not cranking for more than 5secs which is what the ecu will do. I am an electrophobe so this fix is about as technical as I ever get