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14000 miles and I need rings?!

geebee

geebee

Tuned and Synch'ed
GT Contributor
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
26
Location
Denver
:eek: I had a rather disheartening trip to the Guzzi dealer last week. What I thought was going to be a simple valve adjustment, turns out my compression is litterly blown. My 2007 Griso was bought last year with just under 12000 miles, from the second owner. I happily went through it- doing all the regular maintence, as the only thing the 2nd owner had done during his short 2000 mile ownership was an oil change and a TB adjustment. I did all the fluids, sparkplugs (which looked a little worn but color was good) and had a good season riding it with no problems. Last week at 14500 miles I dropped it off with the local Triumph/Guzzi dealer for a delinquent valve adjustment, something that's a bit beyond my experience. During the service they normally pull the plugs and found mine to be badly oil soaked. They immediately did a compression check on both cylinders to find that my Italian redhead was not as young as I thought she was. 80psi compression on one, 70psi on the other. A leak test showed the valves were not bad but rings and maybe cylinder wear was the culprit. The odd thing is it runs, idles and pulls just fine. No smoke and no oil loss at all. My first thought was I'm not the only one on the planet riding a motorcycle with low compression, both sides are close so just ride it till I notice a problem and than scrape up some money to get new ring job. That and get a second opinion though I've been going to this dealer for years with an old Triumph and trust them.

On my first ride after the service (valve adjustment- off a little but nothing out of ordinary). The bike rode and sounded fine but in the back of my mind I could just imagine the pistons slapping back and forth like drunken sailors-slowly destroying my bores. Meanwhile my 1100 cc Griso was actually only a 550cc Grisa!

Yes, I know in a perfect world I'd have done a compression check on the lady before buying but I'll just have to live with the fact that the first owner mistreated her and I'll have to pay the price. I didn't get a firm quote on just a ring job but the service guy said about $400 labor, and with a grin-mentioned-" now would be the time for a bore out !" So what do you all think- raid the cookie jar and get it torn into or just ride it and try not to think too hard?
 
Well, the last comment would seem to indicate that the 'Technician' doesn't know what he's talking about as the bores are Nicasil and not boreable. If he meant fit larger barrels why didn't he say so? And why did he not suggest that if you did that you'd need to get the ECU reprogrammed?

I suggest you nip to an auto shop and grab a compression tester yourself. Earth out the outer plugs after you've removed 'em against the head and perform your own compression test but this time do it with the throttle held wide open. You'll need to disconnect the inner plug leads and earth them out too or it'll try to start when the tester in in the outer hole, (Or you can remove the ignition fuse,)

the whole thing sounds like complete BS to me, especially as the machine is running fine and not using oil or smoking.

Pete
 
I agree with Pete.
I realize the cylinder boring comment may have been off the cuff and not 100% serious but usually if the rings are that bad the bike will smoke, burn oil, and be down on power. Now, if it has been that way from the get go you may not notice the lack of power but the smoking and oil consumption would be hard to miss. I would test it myself, being sure to hold the throttle 100% open while cranking it. Remove the fuse or jump the starter so the ignition is not firing and see what you get. The 100% throttle is very important to getting an accurate reading. The two readings they got are pretty close but really low. It is possible for both cylinders to be equally toast but it is also possible they forgot to hold the throttle wide open and those are the kind of numbers you get when you don't.
 
That might have been my misunderstandng the termonology. I was talking to the sevice guy rather than the the tech so he or I may not have got it right about "borring it out". They didnt charge me for the compression or leak down test and said that when and if I made a descison to do something, stop by and talk about all my options. The service writer mentioned if it got worse I'd have some starting problems, and definitely notice it down on power. Honestly though, lack of power is not a problem now and no with loss of oil over the last year- makes we wonder.

Your right - before doing anything - I'll try a compression reading myself, or have another place do it to confirm.
Thanks!
Greg
 
Hi,besides the leak down readings your bike sounds fine,i would get a mate to follow me and ride it hard in different gears and rpm and see if he spots any smoking .Compression test good idea .I got a feeling and hope your bikes fine .Let us know out come .
 
Is there any place to find the compression numbers that a fine working engine should score ? I mean it is no problem to do a compression test but what should one compare the numbers to ? It seems like you guys know approximately what the "target" numbers for the Griso are. Is it just some mathematical derivation off the engine specifications or is there some kind of a table or data sheet saying which engine should score what compression test values ?

I would love to know what a well working Bellagio engine should score :)
 
andrej said:
Is there any place to find the compression numbers that a fine working engine should score ? I mean it is no problem to do a compression test but what should one compare the numbers to ? It seems like you guys know approximately what the "target" numbers for the Griso are. Is it just some mathematical derivation off the engine specifications or is there some kind of a table or data sheet saying which engine should score what compression test values ?

I would love to know what a well working Bellagio engine should score :)
Click to expand...


I believe the Bellagio is similar to the V11 engine. In which case the compression should be in the 150 to 175 psi range ( dependant of the gauge more than anything else). Usually you look for a more than 10 psi difference to indicate a problem.
 
This seems fishy. If the bike is running fine and not using oil, I suspect there may be an error in the test results. I further suspect this testing was done at Erico and they are, shall we say, not necessarily the cream of Guzzi afficionado's. Haven't had any Triumph work done there, but I have enough experience with them to know that they don't know Guzzi very well.

I am also in Denver if you want to ride another 1100 Griso for comparison.
 
Agree with Alanp, Maybe you should rename the thread title "14000 miles and I need a new dealer"
 
Ok bare with me here, my experience is with grease and oil this compression testing is new to me (Lord knows I don't need to fry a couple of coils right now). I went out and got a Sears compression kit but I need the details explained a bit if you please.

From what I understand- I warm the bike up for just a min. or so, than take out one of the outer plugs, hook up the gauge, yank all the wires off the other plugs and ground them to the head proceding to crank the non starting engine a few times. What's the procedure to take the loose wire/boots and ground them? Just lay the boots against the head?

I also heard mention of pulling the ignition fuse which circumvents the need to pull off the wires and do the ignition wire grounding? I tried to find this particular fuse under the seat but the two most likely culprits- c) fuel pump, coils, injectors, starter relay(20A) and d) Oxygen sensor burner, secondary relay coil, starter relay coil... yada yada yada.(15A) yanking them out one at a time (of course) shut off the starter making this more complicated than I anticipated, I was expecting to find just a fuse for the coils that would still enable the starter? Should have paid more attention in that electronics class... :blink:
 
With older Guzzi's it was easy enough to pull the two plugs and ground them. But with twin plug head Guzzi's it is too much work for me. I would do what I have done on most other motors, hold the throttle wide open (very important) and jump 12 volts from the battery to the starter solenoid to engage the starter without all the ignition.
 
GuzziMoto said:
With older Guzzi's it was easy enough to pull the two plugs and ground them. But with twin plug head Guzzi's it is too much work for me. I would do what I have done on most other motors, hold the throttle wide open (very important) and jump 12 volts from the battery to the starter solenoid to engage the starter without all the ignition.
Click to expand...

Too smart! :D Bloody obvious if you aren't an idiot!!! :mrgreen:

Pete

PS. working out *rough* compression readings isn't hard. Air pressure is *about* 14 PSI working on the fact that VE is going to be pretty good at cranking speed with a 10 to 1 compression ratio that would mean your poundage should be 140PSI. Knock a bit off for loss of VE, leakage and inefficient fill from 'Blockage' from filters and shit and it will be a bit lower. BUT. As the air is comressed it will heat up. Now when you heat a gas it has two choices. expand, or if it can't expand it's pressure within the containment vessel will increase. Since the vessel is made of alloy, (Piston and cylinder head.) all it can do is get more exited and create more pressure.

I'd expect figures with a CORRECTLY conducted compression test to render something in the 165-180 PSI mark on a Griso/Breva/Norge motor if it was in spanking condition. But what would I know?

Pete
 
Do the old mechanics test . do a compression test then put a squirt of oil in the cyl and check it again. If it comes up a lot the compression rings are leaking. if it doesnt come up much at all, the rings are fine. The oil will seal the rings if they are leaking. Also look at the crankcase vent. Should the compression rings be leaking you will have excess pressure in the crankcase. aka blowby. Which I doubt you have.
I would button it up and ride the crap out of it.
 
Under the side fairings, there are a pair of coils on each side of the bike. Just disconnect them.

And disconnect the injectors while you are at it, They are right there, easy to get to, in plain sight.

You will have no ignition and no fuel.
 
The advantage to jumping the starter is that you avoid the issue with the 4 second cut out for the starting sequence. while 4 seconds id probably long enough to achieve an accurate reading crankin' it till the needle of the guage has stabilized, which may take more than 4 seconds, will give a more accurate result.

Pete
 
The beers are on me! As that's not really possible(and probably very expensive with this crowd) I'll be stopping on my way home from work tomorrow to pick up some Guinness and hoist a few for you all.

Left side 142psi, Right side 148psi (If you forget to whack the throttle open it does about 130psi). :D

After looking at the starter and thinking which connection to poke with 12 volts I decided to do the more straight forward approach and disconnect both coils. I pulled out both boots from each coil and disconnected the 2-wire connector in the back of each coil. I did a 4 sec. crank where it ran up to about 140 or so than a second or two on the second crank brought it up to the top readings- my gauge has a feature where it locks in the top compression reading. Buttoned everything back up and it started up fine. Life is good.

I read somewhere that our altitude up here would knock off a slight percentage from a compression test. So I'm happy with the test results, happy with my shiny new Gauge and will be making a call tomorrow to the Service manager to pass on the results...

Thanks all!
 
Yup, I hadn't noticed you were in Denver. Believe me that will make a BIG difference :lol: . While your bike will produce more 'Get-Up-and-Go' at sea level it is highly unlikely that you will ever have detonation problems :mrgreen: !

Incidentally, if the plugs were looking black and wet it could simply be because they were taken out after the bike had just been started, (As in riding it into the workshop and putting it on the bench.) and then turned off as the mixture wuld of been enrichened for starting.

Given the bad advice you were given I'd suggest start doing your own servicing and buy VDSTS so you can do the TPS re-set and see if anything is wrong, (Mind you the dash tells you all the fault codes, so......) I'd have to say I find it very tiresome that someone who has bought a high-end priced motorbike should be given such obviously crappy information about their bike. Surprised? No not any more. But frustrated? Certainly.

Just for a laugh go back and ask them how much a rebore would cost and see what they say.......

Pete
 
Pete,

I'm pretty sure this has been posted elsewhere, but can you or anyone else point me to the lowdown on the VDSTS software how to's? Where to buy it, how to use it, what accessory cable you need, that sort of thing? And does the software work with an Apple laptop (only one I have)?

I am in Denver too, and unfortunately you can't trust Erico to do this stuff properly.
 
alanp said:
Pete,

I'm pretty sure this has been posted elsewhere, but can you or anyone else point me to the lowdown on the VDSTS software how to's? Where to buy it, how to use it, what accessory cable you need, that sort of thing? And does the software work with an Apple laptop (only one I have)?

I am in Denver too, and unfortunately you can't trust Erico to do this stuff properly.
Click to expand...


Email Todd Egan
 
alanp said:
Pete,

I'm pretty sure this has been posted elsewhere, but can you or anyone else point me to the lowdown on the VDSTS software how to's? Where to buy it, how to use it, what accessory cable you need, that sort of thing? And does the software work with an Apple laptop (only one I have)?

I am in Denver too, and unfortunately you can't trust Erico to do this stuff properly.
Click to expand...


Start here:

https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/160/1676.html
 
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