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Liquid cooled engine in the making for 2014?

Guzzi would need an water-cooled engine to broaden their portfolio... water-cooling would be attractive in any sporting bike planned... In a cruiser I would think it less attractive...

vivo
 
Regarding the Harley Ferguson liquid cooled v-rod - it was entirely designed by Porsche (design house not cars) with Harley leading the assembly process and integration with the chassis. The suppliers were chosen by Harley and Porsche who formed a joint venture to do this engine I worked for one of the suppliers of parts when the engine was being designed. A great experience and though I don't care much for their bikes Harley was a great company to do work for, very professional and serious about producing a good quality product.

It is amazing that HD still does not produce a full range of bikes - just 1940's style cruisers and the odd halfhearted attempt at something else though the v-rod is a decent try at a v-max : )

I always thought they should have put the water cooled engine in a decent sport tourer so those of us who aren't in to the village people getup might take a look at their products but they seemed to be sidetracked with buell (trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear) and buying MV Agusta! (never understood what they were trying to do there)

Good old Moto Guzzi for its small size manages to make a cruiser, adventurer tourer, sport tourer, retro, naked etc. A pretty good range for a small outfit. I think Harley could learn something from this in case their current WWII offerings fall out of fashion. (also Guzzi's v-twin is the right way round!)
 
11514v said:
... and buying MV Agusta! (never understood what they were trying to do there)

Harley has a history of buying and selling italian firms (Aermacchi which eventually became Cagiva which resurrected Agusta which was bought once more by Harley and once more sold to Castiglioni).
In my eyes it is some kind of mafia economic back-and-forth by the same players since the '70s.
Personal favors etc and who knows what else... :roll:
 
Ah, not to raise any ire but the best thing Harley Davidson has done lately (imho) was spend money to keep MV Agusta alive. Bought it, paid off all the outstanding debt and then sold it back for $1. I still can't figure that one out.

I guess the second best thing Harley Davidson did lately was just let Erik Buell finally make the motorcycles he really wants to make. I like that guy, even though I've looked at Buells and never ended up buying one. He has a lot of fire in his heart.

Harley Davidson is an enigma to me. Their entire customer base is slowly pushing up daisies. S&S builds a better version of their classic air-cooled engine... HD messed around with the V-Rod design so much that it can't fit into a Softail or Dyna frame, so they are now stuck with just the stretched out V-Rod. They could have leveraged their investment with Buell or MV Agusta but in the end it was all just a big waste of time.

:/

-Derek
 
Agreed - I guess HD decided to take the easy way out while they were making profits selling lifestyle accessories and bits to tart up the bikes and t-shirts etc. It is surprising to me as I had a conversation with an engineer there who described Harley's problem of an aging customer base and limited appeal outside their afficionados - this was over 10 years ago. He was fairly senior but not at upper management level so maybe that level of thinking never penetrated the boardroom.

I think a decent sport touring bike with the liquid cooled engine if done right could have stolen some sales from BMW - say along the lines of the R1200RT?
It is a shame as they could do so much more and appeal to a lot more people. they could also re-design their frames to fit the new engine but the typical Harley customer is not interested in technical improvements or they wouldn't be buying a 1940's designed, 60 hp, 850 lb, 2 wheeled tractor that handles like a wheelbarrow :)

while I'm handing out free advice to motorcycle manufacturers here is my take on BMW - really done an amazing job and have credible machines in every segment and lead many segments outright. Bikes need a little more personality perhaps (I bought a Stelvio over a GS so that's my bias) though I do own an airhead and love it.

Japanese manufacturers need to pay attention to adding some personality to their machines - the European manufacturers are really getting strong and no one buys a motorcycle for practical reasons (at least for those of us where it snows)

on Moto Guzzi - they need to continue along the path they have taken - the V-7 needs another 25 hp - at least in the clubman and cafe versions and 15 hp in the regular version. How do they only get 48 hp out of a 750cc fuel injected twin when my 40 year old BMW made (claimed) 45 hp from 600 ccs?

I would like to see MG be really brave and have a go at turbocharging again - the controls and reliability have improved and make a 150 hp super Stelvio and Norge.The Griso is a lovely machine as is and if I could justify it I would get one.
Before doing that however they really need to get their dealer network and service sorted out and then they might be able to sell to someone other than the cognoscenti!
 
Hey 11514v,

Great post! Thanks for the insight. I agree that HD should try something a little out of the box (a la your VRod touring idea). I am very disappointed in them. Harley managed to finally slough off the reputation of building shoddy paint mixers, only now to be stuck selling nicely finished bikes to a shrinking market. I hope they do something soon, because I'd root for the success of any domestic manufacturer. I'm embarrassed to admit that I've never owned a domestic car (or bike), and I've been looking really hard at one of the new Ford SUV's for my wife. I think this may finally be the right time.

Yes, BMW has kicked some butt. I'm also shocked at how Ducati has managed to 1) stay in business 2) continually improve their "vintage" superbike design and 3) now parlay their sporty success into the muscle cruiser (Diavel) and adventure touring (Multistrada) markets. I think they are taking some notes from Ferrari. Their bikes are not just exotic anymore, but actually class leaders. Wow. Good for them.

I love all kinds of bikes, and if I had the money I'd buy a Harley Knuckle, Pan or Shovel and fix it up to look exactly like it just rolled out of the factory. I'd keep it in my living room and sit on it and make motorcycle noises. I may occasionally even gas it up and ride it around, even though it handles like a wheelbarrow!!! :) Have a great day.

-Derek
 
Hi Derek,

It is sad what has happened to the once great American manufacturing industries, I have worked in automotive manufacturing most of my career and have seen the decline of Detroit and the industrial north first hand.

I think that Harley still has a chance to be relevant but they need to broaden their appeal and not rely on nostalgia that is inevitably going to fade. The American car companies have done a credible job of recovering after the collapse of a few years ago (though GM only did it with a great deal of taxpayer help) and may just survive.

I think the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers need to pay attention as the old European companies are coming back - Ducati, BMW and Triumph are all serious contenders and HD still rules the roost in the cruiser market. 15 years ago I would not have even looked at a non Japanese bike but when I started looking last year I started with Suzuki and Yamaha and ended up with a Moto Guzzi, the runner up was a Triumph....

I see the same thing in cars- I buy Subarus which are fantastic but the other Japanese manufacturers do not really interest me much.

getting back to the Guzzi liquid cooled conversation - it is the right thing for them to do so that they are not looking backward and tied to the past like Harley-Davidson . I would really like to see MG do a turbocharged machine - it is time to do this again in motorcycles and would be a brave move. If the management of the company was competent in marketing and dealership support then a new liquid cooled machine with some brave innovations could allow Moto Guzzi to join Ducati, BMW and Triumph in the European resurgence and if HD broadened their range they could do this as well.
 
I agree with 11514. I own a subaru and a mazda, and I love both of them. I would love to buy american made, and i do at every oportunity, but only if it's quality and affordable. Japan is not the only place to go anymore for affordable reliable transportation. American brands have made leaps and bounds in quality advances from the cars of the 80's and 90's, but the advances made by british and italian bike manufacturers are where I see the greatest changes.

As someone with a degree in automotive systems technology and working on a degree in mechanical engineering, I always research the technological side of my vehicle purchases as well as look at every aspect of the vehicle. I say thank goodness for watercooling. My SV650 is watercooled, and there is nothing more complicated about them (as people have suggested) than an aircooled engine. And thank goodness for fuel injection and computer controlling. Carburetors are stone-age, archaic pieces of technology at best. I've rebuilt and modified carbs, and I've worked on FI systems on cars. I'll take electrical diagnostics and repair with the benefits gained by such electronic controlling any day over obsolete technology. I mean, if people want simplicity and don't care about sacrificing the many gains associated with modern technology, why not go back to leaf-spring suspension on your bike? People and companies being stuck in their ways and not looking ahead is the reason we're still stuck with the internal combustion engine.. a piece of technology which was invented in the 1600's, and over 400 years, we've only been able to make it a little over 30% efficient. If you want to know what that means to you personally, take every $100 you spend on gas, and throw $70 of it out the window, because that's exactly what's happening every time you drive one of your vehicles.. and if you drive a less efficient vehicle.. a pickup truck or SUV? you don't even want to know.

Good for MG for starting to look past nostalgia towards what will keep them alive. Triumph has done an extremely good job of making 'classic' styled bikes with fuel injection and other modern technology. Ducati has done an astounding job of creating an entire new image, both of their company and of their bikes, by moving forward with QC and technology to create beautiful machines that are far beyond the hyper-exotic, finicky pieces of trash of yester-year. Ducati and Triumph have proven that Italian and British style no longer come with trouble-riddled, electrical-nightmare, technological filth. MG has a unique style and heritage that they can easily keep and demonstrate while still moving ahead technologically. HD needs to do the same, as many of their 'younger' buyers are realizing what they're missing, and switching to brands that are keeping up with the times. I saw a LOT of harley riders test riding a diavel at a recent release event.
 
Speaking of the Diavel, I was holding my jaw with both hands ten days ago when I first saw it in person: What a BIKA!!! Whoaaa! The rider told me it is good only for inner city drag racing at the traffing lights and maybe a short ride to some Cafe not far away (his iron butt wife almost divorced him after a 200 mile trip they did two-up) but nevertheless, WHATABIKA! WHOAAAAH!
(Even me cannot hold on to my own thread :silly: )
 
Excuse me for resurrecting the older thread, but I noticed a couple of points that needed clarification:

HARLEY REAR CYLINDER HOT - MYTH - ever see the results of a wind tunnel, or even just watch a river current with swirling eddys. Air isn't linear, and there are multiple factors that make a Harley rear cylinder usually cool just as well (sometimes even better) than the front. These factors include the fact that the exhaust header for the front cylinder directly fouls (preheats) the cooling air for it, but the header for the rear cylinder exits behind the air stream for the rear cylinder. Another factor is that a large portion of the heat is carried away/spread around the motor by the oil system. I've verified this on multiple Harley motors using laser pyrometers. At WORST I've only ever seen the rear cylinder a few percentage points hotter, but I've also seen it cooler.

BUELL and the VROD - Originally the Vrod motor was supposed to be for Eric, but once Harley got their hands on it (their demands on the engineering) it became to LONG for use in a sportbike. Check out the wheelbase on a Vrod, they sorta go locked into that by the design. Eric went back to the drawing board and eventually the 1125 was born.

HARLEY and the YOUTH MARKET - OK, I take all statistics with some grain of salt, but Harley has recently reported that independent research firms have given them the largest share of the youth market (18-20something) in the US (multiple years running). I forget the exact details, but I posted them at Wilguzzi when I first read the article. This harldly surprised me as I bought my first Harley in my mid-20's (as did my wife, and her sister, and a whole number of other people I've known over the years who ride Harleys). Meanwhile, I think it ironic to point out that at the Appalachian Guzzi Rally a week or so ago I took home the award for "Youngest Guzzi Rider" (at 43 - having already owned 5 Harleys). I'm just saying.
 
The rear cylinder on the H-D air/oil-cooled motor gets VERY VERY hot. H-D recentlly modified the engine mangement system to shut down the rer cylinder at slow speed when the the high temperature thresh hold is met. Police models have an auxillary fan to blow air over the rear cylinder at parade speed. Can you say HOT, HOT, HOT!!!

Regards, Paul
 
And the Buells with the air cooled sportster motor had serious rear cylinder heat issues as well. I had a tube frame X-1 and if you did not wear real riding gear (i.e., you wore just jeans) it would toast your inner thighs. I'm pretty sure that one is not a "myth".

Also, the VRod motor began life as the VR1000 motor. As to the length of it, the VR1000 was very short.
 
roadscum said:
The rear cylinder on the H-D air/oil-cooled motor gets VERY VERY hot. H-D recentlly modified the engine mangement system to shut down the rer cylinder at slow speed when the the high temperature thresh hold is met. Police models have an auxillary fan to blow air over the rear cylinder at parade speed. Can you say HOT, HOT, HOT!!!

Regards, Paul

Actually allow me to correct a number of facts.

Harley recently modified the engine management systems on THEIR TOURING MODELS ONLY (FLH) because they found riders in traffic/parades sitting behind fairings were getting too much heat off the REAR EXHAUST PIPE. Harley made an additional change to the FLH models in 2010 rerouting the pipe away from the rider to further address this.

Either way this didn't become a problem until 2007 when they drastically changed tuning to meet the new leaner standards.

This new function was incorporated a few years later when they went to fly-by-wire and it is not automatic, but can be rider activated WHEN STOPPED AT IDLE ONLY by rolling the throttle backwards.

Also, not all police models have a cooling fan, that is an accessory which is designed for similar situations, sitting and idling, something that NO air-cooled motorcycle is reaslly deisgned to do. I'm also not under the immpression that the fan is designed to blow air ONLY on the rear cylinder, I'd have to check that fact. The fan I've seen in the past was designed to mount on the side of the motor and blow air across the inside of the V for both cylinders.

GuzziMoto said:
And the Buells with the air cooled sportster motor had serious rear cylinder heat issues as well. I had a tube frame X-1 and if you did not wear real riding gear (i.e., you wore just jeans) it would toast your inner thighs. I'm pretty sure that one is not a "myth".

Also, the VRod motor began life as the VR1000 motor. As to the length of it, the VR1000 was very short.

The issue with the X-1 was 2-fold, both that even the tube-framed Buells blocked more cooling air than the open framed Harley breathern and they also put the rider closer to the head than the Harley models with the same basic motor. Still, the rest of my points remain valid and I bet if you used a laser pyrometer you'd see less than a 10% difference in front to back temps on a tube framer.

The XBs were another issue altogether since the frame basically encased the rear cylinder blocking off so much airflow.

As for the VR1000 that may have been the starting point for the concept of the Vrod, but obviously from concept to production so much changed that the Vrod became another animal, unsuited for Eric's use.
 
GuzziMoto said:
I had a tube frame X-1 and if you did not wear real riding gear (i.e., you wore just jeans) it would toast your inner thighs.

I had a test ride on Buell Ulysess a couple of years back and just couldn't beleive the amount of heat that came off that thing ! And the vibes....
 
Bisonheed said:
I had a test ride on Buell Ulysess a couple of years back and just couldn't beleive the amount of heat that came off that thing ! And the vibes....

That's one of the fuel-in-frame models I was talking about. Frame almost completely encapsulates the motor, blocking off a lot of air flow, and the rider is perched right over the rear cylinder.
 
They are a bit of an odd-ball aren't they ? They have an incredibly short wheel base but are designed to tour ? I was impressed with the turn-in speed of the bike but that was it, sadly. Still, everyone to their own...
 
Bisonheed said:
They are a bit of an odd-ball aren't they ? They have an incredibly short wheel base but are designed to tour ? I was impressed with the turn-in speed of the bike but that was it, sadly. Still, everyone to their own...

Yup, definitely odd balls.

Always wanted one - it always came in 2nd or 3rd when it came time to buy.

Shame.

Guzzis are oddballs too, but I love em and glad I still have the option to buy em.

RIDE SAFE!
 
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