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Best way to spend $1k on engine mods?

cwadster

Just got it firing!
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
4
Another Guzzi Newbie here. My new 1200 Sport arrived from Moto International (thanks Dave) last week. I never really had the urge for a Guzzi until about 6 weeks ago. Well, after 2 rides totalling about 180 miles, I can say this bike has gotten under my skin as quickly as any bike I can remember. The look, the sound, the feel...I can say that I didn't even blink twice as the new owner drove off with my Stage 2 Bandit 1250 yesterday.

Anyways--I've got about $1k to spend on the engine mods including a pipe. I've done a lot of reading both here and on WildGuzzi. The pipe's a given (can't decide between the two SS GTR pipes)...it looks like fueling comes down to either a Power Commander and O2 Optimizer or a reflashed ECU. I'm not going to break the bank, so the PCV/ECU/Autotune is not going to happen...besides, wouldn't I be getting into Stage 1 kit pricing territory with all that?

So, are the 2 options listed above the best 2 for my budget? Which one is going to provide better rideability and a better power curve? I do worry about what the ECU mod is going to do to my warranty, as my closest dealers (~3 and ~6 hours away) couldn't touch MI's price INCLUDING shipping to my door, so they have no particular reason to overlook that kind of stuff since I didn't buy from them. On the other hand, the O2 optimizer would be usless if I went the PC5/O2 route and later went for the ECU/AutoTune.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Advice?
Thanks in advance...looking forward to learning more about the bikes and their owners.

Chris
 
Personally I think cleaning up the fueling AKA AFR (the crazy lean stock set up) is a lot more important than the pipe, but to each his own. I have a Norge with the stock pipe. I first did the reflashed ECU, then later added PCV/AT. If determined to go only with one of the two, at least initially, go with the reflash, which will improve the AFR everywhere over stock, & on my bike eliminated pinging & greatly reduced popping on the decel. Performance improvement over stock was obvious & dramatic, esp in low/midrange where we do most of our riding. Addition of PCV/AT later eliminated remaining popping & greatly increased top end rush. PCV/AT alone, without reflash, is blocked by the stock ECU from doing anything below 40% throttle.

As for warranty, I decided to wait until warranty was over to avoid those issues. Though if I had known how much better (and cooler) the bike would run with the mods, might have done it sooner anyway. A lot depends on the dealer-ie, do they feel their loyalty is to you, or to Piaggio. If something starts to not run right, tendency might be to blame on the mods-although in fact that is very unlikely. I believe you will have to let them in on it to make sure they do not re-install stock map, which will ruin reflash. Right, Todd? Or anyone else know about that for sure?
 
After I added a Mistral carbon exhaust, I pulled the snorkel on the airbox and drilled a few holes in the top of it. Installed a 50 dollar K&N filter. I ordered the $135 O2 Optimizer for the low end and $399 PC-V mapped for the above mods for the high end.

I know a lot of people have done the reflashed ECU and then added a PC-V and Autotune but that seems redundant-redundant to me. Why have the ECU re-mapped only to then add another 650 dollar mod to re-map the re-map? I also fail to see the benefit of dicking around with Autotune all the time. Why not just spend 200 bucks for a Dyno run and custom map?

Anyway, that's my .02. Congrats on the new bike and have fun!
 
JohninVT said:
After I added a Mistral carbon exhaust, I pulled the snorkel on the airbox and drilled a few holes in the top of it. Installed a 50 dollar K&N filter. I ordered the $135 O2 Optimizer for the low end and $399 PC-V mapped for the above mods for the high end.

I know a lot of people have done the reflashed ECU and then added a PC-V and Autotune but that seems redundant-redundant to me. Why have the ECU re-mapped only to then add another 650 dollar mod to re-map the re-map? I also fail to see the benefit of dicking around with Autotune all the time. Why not just spend 200 bucks for a Dyno run and custom map?

Anyway, that's my .02. Congrats on the new bike and have fun!


Sort of agree you John except as I have learned just leave the auto tune alone and let it do it's thing, mine is set for 13.2 AFR at any thing off idle. It will as best it can adjust the mixture according to what it sees, So altitude, air density and temperature theoretically are being compensated for. My Norge runs the same if I am at sea level (home) or atop the highest part of the Blue ridge at least I can't detect a difference and Summer or Winter temps. Before the mods I could. Mileage is around 41-42 Mpg
 
JohninVT said:
After I added a Mistral carbon exhaust, I pulled the snorkel on the airbox and drilled a few holes in the top of it. Installed a 50 dollar K&N filter. I ordered the $135 O2 Optimizer for the low end and $399 PC-V mapped for the above mods for the high end.

I know a lot of people have done the reflashed ECU and then added a PC-V and Autotune but that seems redundant-redundant to me. Why have the ECU re-mapped only to then add another 650 dollar mod to re-map the re-map? I also fail to see the benefit of dicking around with Autotune all the time. Why not just spend 200 bucks for a Dyno run and custom map?

Anyway, that's my .02. Congrats on the new bike and have fun!

I don't know a lot about ECU's to speak intelligently on this, but when I bought PC's for my last 2 bikes (Suzuki and KTM), unhooking the O2 sensors was part of the PC install. There was no new ECU or remap of the existing ECU required to disable the O2 sensor and give the PC access to the whole map--the PC came with the O2 eliminator plug. I looked up the PC installation instructions for the 2009 Norge, and it requires you to hook the DynoJet's O2 Optimizer inline in the O2 sensor wire. Using my brilliant powers of deduction, I must conclude that the 5AM ECU must be the sticking point that won't allow us to just eliminate the O2 sensor...it must be bypassed with an eliminator or disabled via the ECU. Sound right anyone?

And John--how does yours run?
 
You guys don't understand the deal.

1)Autotune is not just a remap. Autotune self adjusts the ECU map, up to a certain percentage, as you ride, for whatever mods you make, & whatever the conditions are, altitude, atmospheric, temp, to get the AFR you want/need for best performance/cooler running, by reading the exhaust gases & adjusting accordingly on the fly through the PCV. You save the first couple of autotune adjustmenst to get the base map close enough to be within the self adjust range & to have it close when you start up, then you forget about it, except maybe to reset the TPS from time to time, & let the Autotune do its thing in conjunction with the PCV.

2)If you don't get the ECU reflash, the stock ECU, no matter how remapped, blocks PCV/AT adjustments below 40% throttle.

3)ECU reflash by itself does two things. First it installs a good average map through the entire range that does not adjust for mods as you make them or conditions as you encounter them. By nature it is a compromise, not adjusted to the variables of your specific bike as it comes off the production line which are more than you would think, or the specific mods that you make from time to time, or the variables as you go up & down in altitude or temp. Any fixed map that you install is only someones idea of the best average for certain bikes modified a certain way. No matter how good it is, not as good as a constantly self adjusting map, and instantly further off ideal as you make a new mod or conditions change. Second, the ECU reflash makes it possible, if PCV/AT is added, for the self adjusting process to work below 40% throttle.

4)So with ECU reflash only you get a good compromise map that is certainly way better than stock but set for only the specific mods if any & conditions that it is set for-until they change-and not self adjusting for new mods or conditions. With PCV/AT only you get the self adjusting-but only above 40% throttle.

5)Theorize all you wnat, those of us who have done both one at a time know that they each make a big difference seperately in their own way, but even more so when done together.
 
If they all ran like mine does, there would be a LOT more Guzzi's on the road.

My biggest annoyance stock was how the bike leapt away from the line, fell on its' face at 3500rpm, then took off again at 4k rpm. It induced driveline lash around town and made riding two up at low speed harder than it needed to be. My bike was set up correctly and tuned properly. It ran as good as it could delivered from the factory.

It popped on decel on all the time and very badly on hot days.

The difference after the mods is incredible. Top end hp gains were minimal but they are HUGE down low. I can shift into 6th gear and idle the bike down to 1800rpm. If I snap the throttle WFO at 1800rpm, the bike will accelerate cleanly. It shudders a bit from being lugged but there is no on/off surge, crackling or misbehavior. There is no lean spot in the mapping. From idle to when it bounces off the limiter, it pulls hard and loud. It also has less engine braking when you chop the throttle because it doesn't immediately go crazy lean. Mine would lock the rear wheel riding in the rain sometimes before the work.

There are several dyno charts that have been posted here with various setups. I think I've gained AT LEAST 15 hp and 15ft/lbs from 2500-5500rpm. I think I've gained maybe 3-5hp and ft/lbs in peak. The power quality is vastly imrpoved even if peak hp is not. It is now very, very close to a stock 1100 Monster in how it delivers hp(and the amount) but probably has slightly more torque.

On rough, cracked, pot-holed New England roads with sand and frost heaves everywhere....the 1200 Sport is like a hundred mile an hour Barcalounger that's perfect for harassing squids with 55" wheelbase bikes. It is now a superb machine in the rain.
 
I understand the deal. I just disagree with your version of it. Todd's stuff works. It does what he says. However, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I think if two 1200 Sports with open airboxes and exhausts were run on a dyno back to back and one had an O2 Optimizer and PC-V and the other one had an ECU reflash, PC-V and Autotune, the difference would be minimal.

I won't argue the point because while this is a forum, it is also Todd's storefront. I could very well be wrong. My wife tells me I am wrong all the time about nearly everything. :lol: I'll just say that to me, the performance difference could not be justified by the additional $750.
 
JohninVT said:
I think if two 1200 Sports with open airboxes and exhausts were run on a dyno back to back and one had an O2 Optimizer and PC-V and the other one had an ECU reflash, PC-V and Autotune, the difference would be minimal.
*IF* the PC-V were custom mapped ($250~350 expense) and the pull was only done at wide open throttle, there should be zero difference. At mid-speed throttle (where most people ride) is where you will see (and feel) the biggest difference, especially with my ECU mod which revises timing for power and pre-detonation.
Thanks for the post John & Bob.
Chris, if you have any additional questions, direct e-mail is best.
 
Great post gentlemen! I needed that....
groupwave2.gif
 
If it were my money, and not too long ago it was, I'd go with the ECU remap first and then get the pipe or whatever with the rest of the money you have to spend.

You can get the PC-V and Autotune down the road but to get the most out of them you want the ECU remap done.

Since I got the remap and exhaust on (open airbox as well) I later ordered the PC-V and Autotune from Todd.

As big of a difference, in a good way, that the ECU remap was when I initially got that done it was another huge difference when I put the PC-V and Autotune on it.

I don't know why I'd want to buy the PC-V without the Autotune, there's no extra effort involved. Sure you reset the values a few times in the beginning with your laptop until the Autotune gets the adjustments within it's range. Default range for the Autotune is 20%. Once all the values are within 20% you really don't have to do anything with it and it constantly adjusts the mixture while you ride. If I were to hook up my laptop right now I would find that the Autotune is making adjustments all the time, normally I see values in the 10-15% range. A single map from the dyno shop wouldn't give me those adjustments, I'd just have the same map all the time.

This bike is so much more than when I bought it, can't say enought about Todd's products or service.

BTW, if you go with Todd's exhaust and have a center stand on your 1200 Sport make sure he knows that before you order. The center stand requires a tab be welded to the connector pipe for the stop, it's better to have it on there than not.
 
guzzibob said:
You guys don't understand the deal.

1)Autotune is not just a remap. Autotune self adjusts the ECU map, up to a certain percentage, as you ride, for whatever mods you make, & whatever the conditions are, altitude, atmospheric, temp, to get the AFR you want/need for best performance/cooler running, by reading the exhaust gases & adjusting accordingly on the fly through the PCV. You save the first couple of autotune adjustmenst to get the base map close enough to be within the self adjust range & to have it close when you start up, then you forget about it, except maybe to reset the TPS from time to time, & let the Autotune do its thing in conjunction with the PCV.

2)If you don't get the ECU reflash, the stock ECU, no matter how remapped, blocks PCV/AT adjustments below 40% throttle.

3)ECU reflash by itself does two things. First it installs a good average map through the entire range that does not adjust for mods as you make them or conditions as you encounter them. By nature it is a compromise, not adjusted to the variables of your specific bike as it comes off the production line which are more than you would think, or the specific mods that you make from time to time, or the variables as you go up & down in altitude or temp. Any fixed map that you install is only someones idea of the best average for certain bikes modified a certain way. No matter how good it is, not as good as a constantly self adjusting map, and instantly further off ideal as you make a new mod or conditions change. Second, the ECU reflash makes it possible, if PCV/AT is added, for the self adjusting process to work below 40% throttle.

4)So with ECU reflash only you get a good compromise map that is certainly way better than stock but set for only the specific mods if any & conditions that it is set for-until they change-and not self adjusting for new mods or conditions. With PCV/AT only you get the self adjusting-but only above 40% throttle.

5)Theorize all you wnat, those of us who have done both one at a time know that they each make a big difference seperately in their own way, but even more so when done together.

Great, please explain what I need to do. I have a stock Breva 1200 Sport. How do I get an ECU "flashed" so that I can take full advantage of this autotune thing and what exhaust do I need to take full advantage with a center stand and side cases.

Thanks
 
To get the ECU reflashed you have to pull it from your bike, mail it to Todd/RacerX in LA so he can reprogram/reflash it, then reinstall. In the past Todd would turn it around & remail in a day. Check with him to see if that is still the case, I know he is pretty busy with some non-Guzzi stuff right now.

Here's the reflash ECU thread:

https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/160/4129.html

Here's the ECU removal thread:

https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/188/3169.html

I have stock exhaust on my Norge, can't advise. Looks like there are a couple of threads on GT-RX exhausts in this BNS12 forum, perhaps others will advise.
 
guzzibob said:
Check with him to see if that is still the case, I know he is pretty busy with some non-Guzzi stuff right now.
.

I'm glad to hear that he's busy with other stuff. I e-mailed him last week to order a PC and O2 Optimizer--still haven't heard back. I thought he was mad at me for deciding against the re-flash.
 
montelatici said:
Great, please explain what I need to do. I have a stock Breva 1200 Sport. How do I get an ECU "flashed" so that I can take full advantage of this autotune thing and what exhaust do I need to take full advantage with a center stand and side cases.

Thanks

Like Guzzibob said, the first thing you need to do is remove the ECU and send it to Todd. I had mine back in just a few days.

As for exhaust, I'd check and see which ones come ready for the centerstand. Todd can make sure the bump stop is welded on the mid pipe when you order if you get it from him but you need to let him know that you have the centerstand. Otherwise maybe Norge mufflers will already have this since I believe all of them come with a centerstand.
 
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