kwn306
High Miler
Wayne Orwig said:
Wayne,
How much snake oil per oil change? According to the web site it is supposed to be mixed @ 40:1. Whose oil are you using?
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Updated cam and tappets went to lunch
- Thread starter kwn306
- Start date
Wayne,
How much snake oil per oil change? According to the web site it is supposed to be mixed @ 40:1. Whose oil are you using?
Penis Rotor
GT Godfather!
I remain unconvinced that there is anything *wrong* with the 8V motor. I've only seen one engine that has gone tits up with the 'New' bits in and that had been improperly serviced and was run with a really cheap and nasty mineral oil.
I do know that my bike gets used pretty hard and is far from 'Babied' when it comes to servicing. I do over-change the engine oil simply because it DOES work hard but other than that it just gets 'Book' servicing. It runs well, doesn;t seem to get overly hot, even in VERY hot weather and so far nothing has ever gone wrong with it.
It may be that these engines don't have a lot in 'Reserve' in the way of over-engineering but I've yet to see one that has been treated properly go wrong if the recall has been performed correctly. There have been a number of people who have posted here and on other boards now who say their bikes have failed again after the new parts were installed. In most cases once the info on the 'New' cams and the shimming of same is passed on the ranting tends to stop and owners go suddenly silent! While I do think that the whole issue of the re-designed cams could of been publicised earlier and better the info IS now up on the Servicemotoguzzi website and while this is far from a shining example of imformatorial dissemination what info it DOES contain is readilly available to any dealer or service agen who can be bothered to log into it. I tend to do so every couple of days. 90% of the time there is nothing new there. When there is though its worth just opening the PDF and having a look, even if its some sort of bullshit like this.
http://www.servicemotoguzzi.com/public/ ... 3-2010.pdf
I mean???? How are people doing it at the moment that they are able to damage the bikes???? It's obviously enough of a problem to need addressing though.
Pete
I do know that my bike gets used pretty hard and is far from 'Babied' when it comes to servicing. I do over-change the engine oil simply because it DOES work hard but other than that it just gets 'Book' servicing. It runs well, doesn;t seem to get overly hot, even in VERY hot weather and so far nothing has ever gone wrong with it.
It may be that these engines don't have a lot in 'Reserve' in the way of over-engineering but I've yet to see one that has been treated properly go wrong if the recall has been performed correctly. There have been a number of people who have posted here and on other boards now who say their bikes have failed again after the new parts were installed. In most cases once the info on the 'New' cams and the shimming of same is passed on the ranting tends to stop and owners go suddenly silent! While I do think that the whole issue of the re-designed cams could of been publicised earlier and better the info IS now up on the Servicemotoguzzi website and while this is far from a shining example of imformatorial dissemination what info it DOES contain is readilly available to any dealer or service agen who can be bothered to log into it. I tend to do so every couple of days. 90% of the time there is nothing new there. When there is though its worth just opening the PDF and having a look, even if its some sort of bullshit like this.
http://www.servicemotoguzzi.com/public/ ... 3-2010.pdf
I mean???? How are people doing it at the moment that they are able to damage the bikes???? It's obviously enough of a problem to need addressing though.
Pete
WayneOrwig
GT Reference
kwn306 said:
About a 1/4 bottle. Just to make me feel good. I actually forgot to add it the last change. I know that a couple of cam manufacturers require the addition, just during break in. At about 28,000 miles, I worry less about it.
I use the overprice (IMHO) Agip. Buy it by the case. With shipping it works out to $11 US a liter.
kwn306
High Miler
Just got a call from my dealer, they claim the bike is ready to be picked up.
Guzzi sent new cams and tappets for both sides, they arrived last Friday. Mechanic installed the parts Saturday and the bike was test ridden this morning for 30 miles and there is no noise. According to the mechanic the cams fell within the limits and no shims were required.
Mechanic has saved the cams and tappets, I will see them and take pictures on Saturday when I pick up the bike. I will post the pictures and send a set to Pete over the weekend.
Mechanic states the tappets look like the coating has been worn off of them and there are tide marks on the cam lobes on the cam that came out of the left hand cylinder.
I guess I will be taking the bike to the VA State Guzzi Rally. Now I just need to get over the fear of this thing failing again..........been looking at a GS for the past 3 weeks, but I really like the power and performance of that V-twin.
Guzzi sent new cams and tappets for both sides, they arrived last Friday. Mechanic installed the parts Saturday and the bike was test ridden this morning for 30 miles and there is no noise. According to the mechanic the cams fell within the limits and no shims were required.
Mechanic has saved the cams and tappets, I will see them and take pictures on Saturday when I pick up the bike. I will post the pictures and send a set to Pete over the weekend.
Mechanic states the tappets look like the coating has been worn off of them and there are tide marks on the cam lobes on the cam that came out of the left hand cylinder.
I guess I will be taking the bike to the VA State Guzzi Rally. Now I just need to get over the fear of this thing failing again..........been looking at a GS for the past 3 weeks, but I really like the power and performance of that V-twin.
pauldaytona
Cruisin' Guzzisti
ask him the part numbers from the cams mounted
Penis Rotor
GT Godfather!
Exactly. There are two types of cams. Early ones that do not require shims and late ones that do. It's not a matter of them 'Being within limits' They are either cams that require a shim or they aren't. Which one they are is identified by part number.
Get the part #'s and double check.
Pete
Get the part #'s and double check.
Pete
kwn306
High Miler
Paul & Pete,
According to the mechanic..........the 40.35 cams were ordered (part # 873873), also new tappets.
He was in the middle of a service (very small dealer) when I talked with him and said he would call me back with the exact part number later today. He took the information right off of the service bulletin that you provided me Pete, BTW he did have that service bulletin.
Now my question to you mechanics out there in Guzziland and I really do value your opinions and help.......
I purchased the bike in Jan 09, it had 75 - 80 miles on the speedo and was considered used. Update cams and tappets were installed in April 09, this was verified by Guzzi once the mechanic tore into the bike and called Guzzi with the part numbers. The Tech Bulletin came out in April 10 about cam float and shimming.
Who's responsibility was it to notify me (dealer or manufacture) to come in and to see if my motor had shimmable or non-shimmable cams? Or does the problem have to show it's ugly head before Guzzi will do something? This is presuming the noise I heard was from the floating cam.
Guzzi should have had a record of which set of cams went to each bike, via motor serial numbers or bike VIN numbers I would guess, anyhow that sounds logical to me. Rather than running to failure why doesn't the manufacture contact the owners to have the dealers check the bikes.
My dealer used this logic / example to get Guzzi to cover my bike under warranty even though my warranty is long gone, my old cams were the shimmable models.
Is this Italian "Mentality" or Italian QC of their parts?
I love the bike don't get me wrong, but I'm just a tad gun shy of its reliability at this point.
According to the mechanic..........the 40.35 cams were ordered (part # 873873), also new tappets.
He was in the middle of a service (very small dealer) when I talked with him and said he would call me back with the exact part number later today. He took the information right off of the service bulletin that you provided me Pete, BTW he did have that service bulletin.
Now my question to you mechanics out there in Guzziland and I really do value your opinions and help.......
I purchased the bike in Jan 09, it had 75 - 80 miles on the speedo and was considered used. Update cams and tappets were installed in April 09, this was verified by Guzzi once the mechanic tore into the bike and called Guzzi with the part numbers. The Tech Bulletin came out in April 10 about cam float and shimming.
Who's responsibility was it to notify me (dealer or manufacture) to come in and to see if my motor had shimmable or non-shimmable cams? Or does the problem have to show it's ugly head before Guzzi will do something? This is presuming the noise I heard was from the floating cam.
Guzzi should have had a record of which set of cams went to each bike, via motor serial numbers or bike VIN numbers I would guess, anyhow that sounds logical to me. Rather than running to failure why doesn't the manufacture contact the owners to have the dealers check the bikes.
My dealer used this logic / example to get Guzzi to cover my bike under warranty even though my warranty is long gone, my old cams were the shimmable models.
Is this Italian "Mentality" or Italian QC of their parts?
I love the bike don't get me wrong, but I'm just a tad gun shy of its reliability at this point.
kwn306
High Miler
Mechanic just called me back, the part # of the cams were: 873873.
DanPez
Cruisin' Guzzisti
Is the cause of this deterioration due from not having the correct cam clearance (shims) in the first place?
If so Guzzi should track down the owners .... via the dealers!
(Consider this as a recall instead of waiting for failure)
If so Guzzi should track down the owners .... via the dealers!
(Consider this as a recall instead of waiting for failure)
pauldaytona
Cruisin' Guzzisti
the shimable cams were not original in the 09 model. Your bike didn't have shimable cams from factory.
The cams fitted now are for the 2008 model bike.
Pm me your VIN so I can see what model year yours is.
As far as I can see, is the shim thing more for noise then for anything else.
How come you wrote the the cams were in, but the shims not, if you got cams without shim need?
The cams fitted now are for the 2008 model bike.
Pm me your VIN so I can see what model year yours is.
As far as I can see, is the shim thing more for noise then for anything else.
How come you wrote the the cams were in, but the shims not, if you got cams without shim need?
kwn306
High Miler
pauldaytona said:
I was under the impression that the new cams needed shims, I did not realize that there was a cam out there in Guzziland that did not need a shim.
I was told by the onwer of the dealership that the cams & tappets were ordered and were in the country but there were no shims in the US. I assumed that there would be a 4 - 6 week wait for the shims to arrive from Italy.
When I was called earlier this week and told the bike was ready to pick up I was shocked, the mechanic then told me about the one cam that did not require shims and that is what was received and installed.
Needless tyo say I am very pleased to get my bike back so soon. I will go get my registration and send you the vin. According to the title the bike is an 2009, according to the mechanic the cams that were removed from the bike were shimmable cams and these cams were installed by the same mechanic in 4/2009 as part of the update/recall.
DanPez
Cruisin' Guzzisti
Just for pubic information ....
SUBJECT:8V ENGINES(GRISO 1200 –STELVIO1200) -BOWLS
The service communication 002-2009 dated 06/02/2009 stated that the dealers, that work on the bike, have 2 type of updates to follow.(Apart from the procedure for changing the bowls and all other parts required ........)
1) Vehicles in stock with no mileage the camshafts did not need to be replaced.
2) Vehicles that were already in use (with mileage) camchafts have to be replaced with (#873873)
If I were to follow the dates logically your bike should have had the new cams when the bowl campaign was out. (Your Stelvio being already in use)
Unless Guzzi, then, used the same part# for a different clearance cam.(That would be stupid)
Also taken from the bulletin ........
Only for vehicles already in use (>0 miles) it is COMPULSORY TO PRE-WASH THE
ENGINE INTERIOR. Drain off the engine oil, and afterwards pour 2 litres of 10W – 50
economy oil through the fill opening. Start the engine and let it run for 10 minutes,
afterwards drain off the oil again.
SUBJECT:8V ENGINES(GRISO 1200 –STELVIO1200) -BOWLS
The service communication 002-2009 dated 06/02/2009 stated that the dealers, that work on the bike, have 2 type of updates to follow.(Apart from the procedure for changing the bowls and all other parts required ........)
1) Vehicles in stock with no mileage the camshafts did not need to be replaced.
2) Vehicles that were already in use (with mileage) camchafts have to be replaced with (#873873)
If I were to follow the dates logically your bike should have had the new cams when the bowl campaign was out. (Your Stelvio being already in use)
Unless Guzzi, then, used the same part# for a different clearance cam.(That would be stupid)
Also taken from the bulletin ........
Only for vehicles already in use (>0 miles) it is COMPULSORY TO PRE-WASH THE
ENGINE INTERIOR. Drain off the engine oil, and afterwards pour 2 litres of 10W – 50
economy oil through the fill opening. Start the engine and let it run for 10 minutes,
afterwards drain off the oil again.
Penis Rotor
GT Godfather!
The engine flush suggestion is a ridiculous joke. I told the rep from Piaggio so when he visited in Feb this year. The sump should be removed at the very least and the muck cleaned out if the tappets have failed. It's only common sense.
The problem with the early engines was the TAPPETS BEING TOO SOFT if they never failed there is really no need to replace them. I think rhe reason they were all replaced is because the factory engineers didn't trust some 'Technicians' to be able to recognise a damaged cam so it was safer to just replace everything whollus-bollus.
Pete
The problem with the early engines was the TAPPETS BEING TOO SOFT if they never failed there is really no need to replace them. I think rhe reason they were all replaced is because the factory engineers didn't trust some 'Technicians' to be able to recognise a damaged cam so it was safer to just replace everything whollus-bollus.
Pete
DanPez
Cruisin' Guzzisti
pete roper said:
Thanks Pete for this additional step ......
I would think if there was a lack of confidence between the Engineers/Technicians your suggestion should have been implemented!!!
Hopefully this was done with Kurt's bike
Roberto
Just got it firing!
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2011
- Messages
- 7
Hi guys. See noisy Griso submissions.
Mine is page 3 I believe.
The dealer who is awaiting my cam followers to turn up has a Norge and a Stelvio post 08 with the recall previously done on both.
The 8 valve flagship engine in the Griso, Stelvio and Norge has been blighted by this inferior part( s). Expect a long wait if this happens to you.
The whole back up and quality control regarding the Piaggio group concerning the Guzzi cohort is appalling ; these are not cheap bikes !
Any Ideas on how we can put pressure to change the status quo ?
Mine is page 3 I believe.
The dealer who is awaiting my cam followers to turn up has a Norge and a Stelvio post 08 with the recall previously done on both.
The 8 valve flagship engine in the Griso, Stelvio and Norge has been blighted by this inferior part( s). Expect a long wait if this happens to you.
The whole back up and quality control regarding the Piaggio group concerning the Guzzi cohort is appalling ; these are not cheap bikes !
Any Ideas on how we can put pressure to change the status quo ?
kwn306
High Miler
I'm all smiles fellows, got my beast back today and it runs fine.
I will see my kids tomorrow (Father's Day in the US) and they will assist me in getting the pictures from my digital camera to the web site for all to view.
Basically what failed was the following..the exhaust tappet was completely worn out by the cam shaft, the black hardened area is silver in color, concaved and very ruff on the surface. The left hand camshaft exhaust lobe has deep scratches in it. The intake side was beginning to wear through the hardend surface as well. The right cam shaft and tappets were just beginning to wear the black harden surface off the tappets.
Mechanic showed me a picture of the new cams and tappets, the tappets were completely different in design. The old tappets the hardened surface covers the face of the tappet and actually down onto the stem of the tappet. The new tappets the black hardened surface only covers the face and just a little down the side of the face, maybe only a 1/16" - 1/8", not down onto the stem like the old ones.
The owner told me as soon as Guzzi saw the pictures that the mechanic sent to the NY office they called them and said "new parts are on the way and we will warranty the job." Something tells me the wrong tappets were installed in my motor in April of 2009.
I will see my kids tomorrow (Father's Day in the US) and they will assist me in getting the pictures from my digital camera to the web site for all to view.
Basically what failed was the following..the exhaust tappet was completely worn out by the cam shaft, the black hardened area is silver in color, concaved and very ruff on the surface. The left hand camshaft exhaust lobe has deep scratches in it. The intake side was beginning to wear through the hardend surface as well. The right cam shaft and tappets were just beginning to wear the black harden surface off the tappets.
Mechanic showed me a picture of the new cams and tappets, the tappets were completely different in design. The old tappets the hardened surface covers the face of the tappet and actually down onto the stem of the tappet. The new tappets the black hardened surface only covers the face and just a little down the side of the face, maybe only a 1/16" - 1/8", not down onto the stem like the old ones.
The owner told me as soon as Guzzi saw the pictures that the mechanic sent to the NY office they called them and said "new parts are on the way and we will warranty the job." Something tells me the wrong tappets were installed in my motor in April of 2009.
kwn306
High Miler
Phang said:Hi Kurt,
I just dig out a photo taken by Pete in another topic, does it look familiar to you? :mrgreen:
Phang
Phang, No they were "alittle" differnt than those two.
The one on the left was close to the new one they just installed, except the black was on the face and on the vertical just before it started to taper towards the stem.
My old one was black on the face, the vertical, the taper and about 1/4" down the stem, then it turned to silver.
Mi_ka
High Miler
Well, it is not perfectly clear if everything is OK with the replacement tappets or cams and this makes me worry (u know, which Griso should I keep on dreaming, the 1100 or the 8V :silly: ).
As the 8V engine is relatively young, could this be a design weak point waiting to manifest itself later even on the "good" stronger parts? As Pete says the very first tappets were made of poor quality metal and the newer are pretty much OK but can this OK be enhanced?
If the problem/weak point resides on the tappets, can this relatively simple part be made out of a higher grade material at a local quality machine/lathe shop by an owner? Or is the MG original part made of the highest grade material suitable for the job?
Theoretical thoughts, mind you!
As I look at the old/new design I see that the new one has a less thick "head" so less mass to be controlled by the cam and stay attached to the "stem". Talking of the cylindrical tappet stem, any measurements between the thickness of the walls of the old vs new parts?
As the 8V engine is relatively young, could this be a design weak point waiting to manifest itself later even on the "good" stronger parts? As Pete says the very first tappets were made of poor quality metal and the newer are pretty much OK but can this OK be enhanced?
If the problem/weak point resides on the tappets, can this relatively simple part be made out of a higher grade material at a local quality machine/lathe shop by an owner? Or is the MG original part made of the highest grade material suitable for the job?
Theoretical thoughts, mind you!
As I look at the old/new design I see that the new one has a less thick "head" so less mass to be controlled by the cam and stay attached to the "stem". Talking of the cylindrical tappet stem, any measurements between the thickness of the walls of the old vs new parts?