8V Failure info.

[GTM®]

All: There are some solid contributions here, but when it starts a downward spiral things crash & burn quickly.

Pete, Paul, et al... thanks for your contributions as always.

Striking out verbally isn't tolerated here.

Thanks for understanding.

If solid info is found, please post, otherwise all offending posts will be deleted.

 

[DanPez]

Re: Arrivederci…………my good friends.

As can be seen from the exploded parts diagram the heads and cams are fed by the secondary oil pump. This picks up oil from a strainer, delivers it to the cooler and from there it goes to the heads. IT DOES NOT PASS THROUGH THE OIL FILTER! Therefore, if the oil is full of mashed tappet not only will that mashed tappet start by trashing the oil pump but after passing through there it will have every opportunity to block the vanes in the oil cooler, the delivery hoses or the banjos or, most likely, the galleries in the heads and camboxes themselves.
Pete

The things I like about the thread are .... we are finding solution on how this failure can be avoided without even knowing it:
-The recommended oil is graded SG therefore has a dosage of zinc phosphorous which helps protection in high pressure areas of flat tappets. (Use recommended oil !!!)
-When and if there is a failure … oil in the bike has to be flushed completely and the oil pump / strainer / cooler dismantled and cleaned thoroughly. (Get the mechanic to do it !!!)

I don't know about the Spanish forums, but here in France there definitely are forums where problems are discussed and debated ...

I agree!!!!
Not to the point of taking legal actions but having our say as customers so that the "mechanics", who work on these bikes, follow THIS procedure.
Then we can move on .....and diagnose if other issues come up.

 

[Brian UK]

Issues like this one and others, have also been well documented on our UK forum too, to the extent that we had a complaint from Guzzi/Piaggio UK about the negative content of the forum. They claimed it was affecting sales.
I pointed out (in my capacity of Club webmaster) that we didn't allow lies or hearsay, so perhaps they should take note.
They went very quiet after that.
This was a couple of years ago.

 

[draidt]

Brian

Link ?

 

[Brian UK]

http://motoguzziclub.co.uk/forum/default.asp

 

[Phang]

http://motoguzziclub.co.uk/forum/default.asp

Thanks Brian.

Registered and gold mining at the Tech Talk now.

Phang

 

[Penis Rotor]

Can't access the tech site Brian? Do you have to register?

Pete

 

[youcanrunnaked]

Can't access the tech site Brian? Do you have to register?

Pete

Yes. The Tech threads are hidden until you register.

 

[Brian UK]

Also without registering you will not be able to post anywhere.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Would the nice Pmmy board want a bad tempered, politically incorrect, intollerant old fuck posting there? I'd worry about stepping on the toes of people who think they are my betters apart from anything else.

Pete

 

[draidt]

Would the nice Pmmy board want a bad tempered, politically incorrect, intollerant old fuck posting there? I'd worry about stepping on the toes of people who think they are my betters apart from anything else.

Pete

Who do have in mind Pete :?: :?: :?: :evil:

Phsst I think they can.

 

[Brian UK]

Would the nice Pmmy board want a bad tempered, politically incorrect, intollerant old fuck posting there? I'd worry about stepping on the toes of people who think they are my betters apart from anything else.

Pete

I doubt there are any there who are your betters Pete, so who cares what they think? Some of your words may come out a bit strange though - set by my predecessor, not me.

 

[youcanrunnaked]

This may have some relevance for any 8V owners following this thread, who are concerned about premature engine wear.

I have been corresponding with Mr. Howard Hoyt, an engineer who works for the manufacturer of ZDDP Plus, an engine oil additive that can be used to increase the level of ZDDP in engine oil. (ZDDP is a high-pressure engine lubricant; premature valve wear in some vehicles has been blamed on insufficient quantities of ZDDP -- around 600 ppm -- in the current API spec oils.) The gist of his advice and recommendations is as follows:

1. For motorcycle engines with wet clutches, follow the manufacturer's oil recommendation, and do not add ZDDP Plus. (Not a problem with Moto Guzzi motorcycles, but I include this caution so people are aware of it.)

2. For a dry-clutch motorcycle with a 3.5 liter oil capacity (e.g., Stelvio), and starting with a full synthetic oil with 1200 ppm ZDDP (e.g., Agip 4T Racing 10W 60), add ZDDP Plus as follows:

For 1400ppm ZDDP - add 0.5oz of ZDDP Plus

For 1600ppm ZDDP - add 1.0oz of ZDDP Plus

For 1800ppm ZDDP - add 1.5oz of ZDDP Plus

3. DO NOT exceed 1800 ppm ZDDP.

4. ZDDP as an oil additive is used up as the engine is run. Therefore, for best results, add half of the recommended dosage of ZDDP Plus at each oil change, and the other half about halfway through each oil change interval.

5. Extended oil change intervals are possible with modern engines and synthetic oils, but they still result in accelerated engine wear, despite what the manufacturer of the vehicle might recommend. Mr. Hoyt sent me a white paper on this subject. It is fascinating, but much too long to post here. The bottom line is that for anyone concerned about engine life, engine oil should be changed every 3,000 miles or six months, whichever is earlier, even if you have a modern fuel-injected engine and use a quality full synthetic oil.

HTH.

 

[john zibell]

I disagree with the short interval change. I worked at the lead agency for the DoD oil analysis group. Analysis has shown that oils don't need to be changed that often. Oil analysis has shown that oils will protect much longer than manufacturer recommendations. Oil anaylsis is effectively used to prevent and predict failures, and has resulted in saving millions of dollars in unnecessary maintenance. Oil is a limited resource, I don't believe in wasting it doing oil changes that aren't needed. I've had my bike's oil analyzed after removal at the recommended interval, the analysis showed it was still good and would have been for a long time.

 

[youcanrunnaked]

I disagree with the short interval change. I worked at the lead agency for the DoD oil analysis group. Analysis has shown that oils don't need to be changed that often. Oil analysis has shown that oils will protect much longer than manufacturer recommendations. Oil anaylsis is effectively used to prevent and predict failures, and has resulted in saving millions of dollars in unnecessary maintenance. Oil is a limited resource, I don't believe in wasting it doing oil changes that aren't needed. I've had my bike's oil analyzed after removal at the recommended interval, the analysis showed it was still good and would have been for a long time.

I claim no expertise in this area, but the white paper that I referred to completely contradicts every point you have made. Those points are:

Today's synthetic oils may themselves last a good long time, but the oil-- any oil -- still gets contaminated with soot, ash, acids, etc., at the same rate as always. Also, the additive package still deteriorates at the same rate as always. The paper I referred to showed a controlled study of engines comparing normal versus extended oil change intervals with synthetic oil. The engines with the more frequent oil changes deviated less than 3% from the base measurement when dyno'd (with an increase in power at the upper rev range), while the engines with the less frequent changes showed more than a 10% power loss over the entire rev range.

The paper points out that this is consistent with other studies, as well as common sense. Engines wear as the oil in them gets used. The more "used" the oil is, the more the engine wears. This process starts the moment you put in the new oil and run the engine, and continues until you change the oil, at which point the process starts all over again. There is no "ideal" or "safe" point to change oil; any point is a compromise between wear, economy, and convenience.

As far as conservation of resources, the paper makes the point that you have to figure the energy costs of disposing of a worn-out vehicle, and replacing it with a newly-manufactured vehicle, versus the energy cost of more frequent oil changes. The energy cost of changing the oil more frequently, even twice or three times as frequently as some new vehicle and synthetic oil extended intervals suggest, is dwarfed by the energy cost of replacing these vehicles more frequently.

In the end, do what you like. However, if i had an 8V, I would be changing the oil every 3,000 - 4,000 miles, not the 6,000 miles recommended by Moto Guzzi. I would also be dosing the oil with ZDDP additive, to keep the ZDDP levels around 1,600 - 1,800 ppm, instead of the minimum of 1,200 ppm.

 

[Brian UK]

5. Extended oil change intervals are possible with modern engines and synthetic oils, but they still result in accelerated engine wear, despite what the manufacturer of the vehicle might recommend. Mr. Hoyt sent me a white paper on this subject. It is fascinating, but much too long to post here. The bottom line is that for anyone concerned about engine life, engine oil should be changed every 3,000 miles or six months, whichever is earlier, even if you have a modern fuel-injected engine and use a quality full synthetic oil.

HTH.

I tend to use the empirical method when it comes to this kind of thing.
That white paper is just one person's point of view.
Why is it then that while all petrol engines are now fuel injected, and ALL manufacturers are recommending far longer oil change intervals, the engines are actually lasting longer than ever?

 

[Mi_ka]

I would take the opinion of someone making his living on my doing of frequent oil changes, with a grain of salt.

 

[GTM®]

This is not an oil thread guys, if it continues, it will be split and locked. :S

 

[youcanrunnaked]

Why is it then that while all petrol engines are now fuel injected, and ALL manufacturers are recommending far longer oil change intervals, the engines are actually lasting longer than ever?

The Paper goes into a very detailed explanation of this, as well as the various reasons why manufacturers are recommending longer change intervals. I am not going to argue the points, as I only posted about this for informational purposes, and I did not intend for this to become another oil thread.

I think my thesis is sound, regardless: IMHO, if you are concerned about valvetrain wear with your 8V engine, change the oil more frequently, and increase the ZDDP level to 1600 -1800 ppm. However, if your position is that neither of these steps will make a difference, so be it.

I uploaded the Paper to Google Documents, and will supply a link so anyone interested can examine the document and debate it if they choose. I will do so in a new thread. Please, let's discuss the issue of extended oil change intervals there, not here.

EDIT: Here is the link for the new thread:
https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/160/7407.html
For those of you who just love a good oil argument, enjoy!

 

[Brian UK]

To get back on course..
Pete, I said the new engines had the prefix A10, I was wrong, the two Stelvios I saw yesterday were both stamped AC.
Hope to get pics of the roller followers next weekend.