Tonti U-joint installation

[Rafael]

Hi guys,

I'm installing a u-joint into a new bearing and its a tight fit, as it should be. In the past, I've tried freezing the UJ and warming the swing arm with out success. I ended up going back to the original MG clearances by turning the UJ bearing face then using sleeve retainer. That's the easiest and fasted install method for me so far.

Is any body using the factory UJ install tool? I'm wondering if it really helps, I'm still concerned that factory tool will required using a dead blow hammer and possibly damaging the bearings in the process.

thanks.

I searched U-joint but did not find any threads. I remember reading one though...

 

[Rafael]

Gotta bum memory, turns out I saw the UJ installer tool on Charley Cole's web site http://www.zydecoracing.com/albums/album_image/5079056/4776560.htm and assumed it was a factory tool. Its a custom made tool that he bought along with other shop tools and doesn't know who made it. If I can find the right size steel tube I may try to make one.

 

[Morizzi]

Rafael,

I've never needed to use one of the tools. I've always managed to get it there in the end.

If difficult I have the rear drive attached and the axle up through the swing arm bearing. This helps guide the cardan joint down centrally into the bearing.

If you have already done this then not much more that I can add.

Good luck

Rod

 

[Rafael]

Hi Rod,

Have you used this technique with press fit UJ and bearing?

thanks, Rafael

 

[Morizzi]

One end (only one) of the cardan joint is an interference fit with the swing arm bearing so it is supposed to be tight. If it isn't I usually cheat and hold it tight with some form of retaining fluid. The other end is too big but as you mentioned machining and an easy sleeve I figured you were aware but I'll mention it just to make sure. That end will never fit unless you machine it down.

Getting the cardan joint to slide into the bearing can be tricky but if the rear drive is attached to the swing arm and the shaft in place the cardan joint spline has something to slide down and align to. You then just need to jiggle it until it enters the bearing.

If the fit is loose then I usually just apply some fluid and slide the 2 together. If it is tight I do the above. I have always eventually had success but it can take a bit of jiggling.

Cheers

Rod

 

[Rafael]

Hi Rod

I know about the fit end of the cardan, I mentioned turning the end because MG used to make these a slip fit, which is a problem they eventually corrected. My understanding of the fit is, that if you can get it in by hand, it will slip under load and requires the retainer fluid. This design is definitively a weak point. I don't see a like bearing in the CARC design, good riddance.

I'm going to try your suggestion to see if I can get it in with a lube, then re-do with the retainer fluid.

thanks

 

[KnowFear]

Gotta bum memory, turns out I saw the UJ installer tool on Charley Cole's web site http://www.zydecoracing.com/albums/album_image/5079056/4776560.htm and assumed it was a factory tool. Its a custom made tool that he bought along with other shop tools and doesn't know who made it. If I can find the right size steel tube I may try to make one.

I would like to make one of these tools. I assume that the u-joint simply slides loosely into the tool?

 

[Rafael]

I assume that the u-joint simply slides loosely into the tool?

Correct, but it cant be too loose so as to cause articulation of the cardan. There has to be a flat area beneath the handle to come in contact with the trans end of the cardan. And the sleeve portion can't be too long.

Let us know how it goes, there may be some interest for purchase. Subsequent fabrications usually go easier and faster.

 

[KennyRogers]

Its really difficult to install the U joint if you don't have any experience with it. Its better to ask someone for help.

 

[geodoc]

I've installed many using my ghetto tool:

1) install new carrier bearing / circlip

2) place u-joint in the swingarm ready to press into the carrier bearing

3) install an alignment tool made from a piece of PVC pipe, machined to be a close, but not tight fit to the OD of the UJ and the ID of the swingarm. This just holds the UJ straight while pressed into the carrier bearing.

4) place the swingarm in a press and press the UJ into the carrier bearing until fully seated.

5) remove PVC tool

6) hava-cuppa-coffee

I've tried a couple different locktite products and found that 620 seemed to last about 3-4000 miles with a slightly hopped-up 850T. In the spirit of "there is nothing so permanent as a temporary repair", I don't do it anymore. If you're charging shop rate, the process of installing a sleeve on the appropriate end of the UJ (after it's dismantled to get it in the lathe) is almost as much as the cost of a new UJ.

G

 

[Will]

Its really difficult to install the U joint if you don't have any experience with it. Its better to ask someone for help.

Absolutely! The first time I did the UJ on my LMv it took several hours with a mate helping. Second time I did it by myself & it took me about about half the time. Third time I had it done in about 30 minutes.

 

[Rafael]

All right this thread has been dormant for a while.

Well I did get the UJ in months go using high strength sleeve/bearing retainer (LocTite). Also took off a minuscule bit of metal from the mating face of the UJ to get it in, guess I was too impatient or unskilled. But it will be hell getting this thing out when the time comes.

If I were to do it again, I would press in the bearing but leave out the retaining clip. This press fit seem adequate enough to keep the bearing from coming loose. The weak point always seems to be the UJ to bearing - never seen a bearing spin in housing. Then bond the UJ to the bearing using sleeve retainer. When the time comes to disassemble, one would only have to remove the swing arm and pound out the bearing and UJ as a unit using an old drive shaft and a welded sleeve to contact the bearing.

Any comments?

I read an idea by Greg Field once in which he proposed welding a peice of metal to the housing tapping it and using a set screw or screws to hold the bearing in place. This would allow installing the UJ & bearing as a unit after pressing the bearing onto the UJ. Charlie Cole's thought was to extend the shaft splines through the bearing or add splines to the UJ. This is a great idea but who's going to do it? Lots of engineering involved with this one...

 

[geodoc]

Heh Rafael,

I've pondered the U-joint conundrum for a while. My hot-rodded 850T would spin the UJ 'snout" in the carrier bearing in about 20,000 mi. No fix for that - 620 Locktite only lasted for a couple thousand miles. I never got to try installing a disc brake swing arm on it, but have on my hot-rodded loop (w/ 850T rear hub). We'll see if it makes it past to 20K mi. mark.

Afraid that if you own a Guzzi of a certain vintage, it's just going to be part of the maintenance program to install a new UJ / carrier bearing every so often.

GD

All right this thread has been dormant for a while.

Well I did get the UJ in months go using high strength sleeve/bearing retainer (LocTite). Also took off a minuscule bit of metal from the mating face of the UJ to get it in, guess I was too impatient or unskilled. But it will be hell getting this thing out when the time comes.

If I were to do it again, I would press in the bearing but leave out the retaining clip. This press fit seem adequate enough to keep the bearing from coming loose. The weak point always seems to be the UJ to bearing - never seen a bearing spin in housing. Then bond the UJ to the bearing using sleeve retainer. When the time comes to disassemble, one would only have to remove the swing arm and pound out the bearing and UJ as a unit using an old drive shaft and a welded sleeve to contact the bearing.

Any comments?

I read an idea by Greg Field once in which he proposed welding a peice of metal to the housing tapping it and using a set screw or screws to hold the bearing in place. This would allow installing the UJ & bearing as a unit after pressing the bearing onto the UJ. Charlie Cole's thought was to extend the shaft splines through the bearing or add splines to the UJ. This is a great idea but who's going to do it? Lots of engineering involved with this one...

 

[blakbird]

After reading this thread i felt prepared to tackle the re-installation of the U-Joint in the swinging arm of my 78 Lemans series Ii.

Last week I took the swinging arm, a new carrier bearing and circlip, to the local BMW shop, Blue Moon in Norcross, GA. The folk at Blue Moon were exceedingly helpful in removing the U-Joint from the carrier bearing, then removing the circlip and carrier bearing and installing the new ones.

They installed the U-Joint also, but weren't very confident that it had seated correctly. Shining a light up the swinging arm from the bevel drive end it looked like there was a lot of the inner ring of the bearing showing. I gingerly attempted to seat the U-J a little further, but realised it wasn't moving. Not wanting to damage the U-J i decided to try to remove the U-J and re-install it following the recommendations in this forum. Especially the one that mentioned Freezing the U-J and using a PVC coupling to stop the U-J wriggling around.

So armed with the knowledge imparted by the contributors to this discussion i successfully installed a 'Frozen' U joint in the swimming arm of my '78 Lemans series II with a 2" PVC (schedule 40) coupler a 1/2 FIPT PVC coupler, a sawn off drumstick, 2 4x4s, some duct tape, a 16 mm nut, bolt and washer, a dab of grease, a few inches of string and two taps with a small sledge hammer.

The U-Joint in question spent 3 days in a zip-lock bag in my freezer to shrink it to ease the installation in the carrier bearing.

After sanding down the ridge in the centre of the 2" PVC coupler it acts as a straight jacket for the universal joint. The 2" coupler may need to be "sized" to a slip fit into the wide end of the swinging arm. Also the inside may need easing just enough to allow the U-Joint to slip through.
it's advisable to drill 3 or 4 small holes equidistant around the coupler about 3/4 inches from each end, to provide a place to hook out the coupler when the U-Joint is seated.

After cutting off the domed, thick, end of the drumstick make another cut about 7 inches further along the drumstick. Wrap a 1/2" wide strip, about 8-10" long around the drumstick about 3/4" from one end.

Insert the long end of the drumstick into the 1/2" PVC coupler twist and push the drumstick into the coupler so that the duct tape is jammed inside the coupler, leaving the unwrapped 3/4" of the drumstick sticking out at one end the other 5" or so hanging out at the other end. Drill a small hole through the drum stick, big enough to push the string through, about 1/2" from the end. Poke the string through the hole and make a loop by knotting the loose ends together. This is to aid in removal, if needed, later.

Wrap duct tape around the outside of the 1/2" coupler about 2 times around, verify that the duct taped wrapped coupler slides through the inner ring of the carrier bearing without binding.

Note: The sawn off drum stick, 1/2 FIPT coupler and duct tape are now an alignment tool, to align the U-Joint in the carrier bearing.

Position the swinging arm with the left (long side) touching either end of a 4x4 and the cross member parallel with the length of the 4x4. Mount the swinging arm on the 4x4 using 4 1/4" lag bolts about 1.5" long.

Screw the 16 mm nut on the 16 mm bolt leaving far enough to leave approx 5/8" of the thread sticking out.

Place the 4x4 with the swinging arm attached on top of the other 4x4 that happens to be resting on a solid base, like your garage floor, so that the wide end of the swinging end arm is up. Slip the 2" PVC coupler into the wide end of the swinging arm.

Take the bagged U-Joint out of the freezer. Insert the short end of the alignment tool into the splined end of the U-Joint. Carefully slide the long end of the alignment tool into the carrier bearing so that the duct taped 1/2 PVC coupler slips into the carrier bearing. At this point the purpose of the 2" coupler becomes clear. The U-joint should be able to turn inside the coupler but not "lean' to any side.

Put a dab of grease on one side of the washer and put the greased side on the 16 mm bolt so that the grease sticks the washer to the nut.

insert the thread of the 16mm bolt into the splined opening at the, now, uppermost end of the U-Joint with the washer touching the rim of the U-joint.

Strike the head of the bolt with the sledge hammer a few times, in my case just two times, you will know the U-Joint is properly seated in the carrier bearing by the change in tone when you strike the bolt.

Turn the U-Joint so that you can see the holes drilled in the side of the PVC coupler, hook out the coupler.

Unmount the Swinging arm from the 4x4.

Remove the alignment tool from the part of the swinging arm that doubles as the drive shaft tunnel.

I could have installed the swinging arm and re-assembled the entire back end If i hadn't torn up the layshaft seal because I was too stoked on the successful installation of the U-J I forgot to form an installation aid out of a piece of plastic from a bottle of water for the inside edge of the seal. Pride goeth before a fall ( or in this case: a fool )

Many thanks to all contributors to this thread.