850t tach and timing chain questions

[AndrewGelling]

I am sure both of these questions have been answered in a thread somewhere, but I have had zero luck with my searches.

First question: Guzziology recommends a timing chain with a master link, but gives no specs. Does anyone have the specs? And any suggestions on a source would be appreciated. I have the new tensioner, and a new one piece chain, but hoping to avoid the work of installing the one piecer...

Second question: My veglia tach has a rubber trim bit at the top that holds the glass lense in place. It has rotted to pieces and the glass fell out. Any suggestions for repairing/replacing? The speedo has an aluminum ring holding the glass, but not the tach...

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[john zibell]

Forget the chain with the master link, the continuous chains are readily available and not all that difficult to install. I'd also use the tensioner from either MG cycle or Harper's. For tach repair, try the folks at Palo Alto Speedometer. You can get them with a web search.

 

[AndrewGelling]

Thanks, John. I do have the tensioner from MG, and already own a new continuous (much better description than my "one piece") chain, also from MG. Even had them last winter when the engine was out of the frame. I should have just done it then! Anyways, while it may not be too difficult a job, it still seems that using a master link would be far simpler. Is there a reason not to use one? While they obviously don't face the forces of my Guzzi, I've never heard of a master link chain failing on say a bicycle chain.

 

[Supaflee]

I have , and the rider still has a squeaky voice .
supaflee

 

[john zibell]

Thanks, John. I do have the tensioner from MG, and already own a new continuous (much better description than my "one piece") chain, also from MG. Even had them last winter when the engine was out of the frame. I should have just done it then! Anyways, while it may not be too difficult a job, it still seems that using a master link would be far simpler. Is there a reason not to use one? While they obviously don't face the forces of my Guzzi, I've never heard of a master link chain failing on say a bicycle chain.

I've never seen a double row chain with a master link. but I do know it takes a little room to maneuver the master, and there isn't much space in the timing chest. Also the orientation of the locking plate must be correct or it could fail. Plus with the tension the blade tensioners provide, holding the thing back long enough to have the slack needed to insert the master could be difficult. I've always had a helper to hold back the tension while position the sprockets and chain. Holding the blade back takes some effort and it take two hands to install the sprockets and chain as a unit, or to insert the link in the chain. So, I prefer to have the continuous chain when I do the job.

 

[AndrewGelling]

Thanks

 

[injundave]

The ideal place for the plate and clip of a joining link in a chain is on the outside of the chain where it can be seen. Most chains, unless flogged out totally, do not like to bend sideways and make inserting the joining link from behind almost impossible. Unless you are lucky and there is space between the chain and the alloy behind it, you may very well be forced to fit the plate and clip behind the chain. This kinda negates any advantage from having a link in the first place. Stick with an endless chain. Once you get the hang of it they are not that hard to fit.

 

[fotoguzzi]

I have used the link chain in the past.. I don't see any reason not to use it as long as the clip is positioned right.
also, I used a needlenose vice grip to lock the tensioner to the side of case, then there is room to slip the chain on.

get the masterlink chain from MOTO INTERNATIONAL.

 

[AndrewGelling]

Thanks. I had the day off today, and had a chance to read every thread I could find on the topic, here, wild guzzi, this old tractor... I believe it was from one of your (fotoguzzi) posts elsewhere, that I found a source for the masterlink chain.
Anyways, the engine is in the frame, and I won't have the time to drop it again this winter, I do have the timing cover off, so my decision about which chain to use seems to come down to whether or not I can get the crank and cam sprockets free with the engine in the frame. So John, how do I keep the crankshaft from spinning while I use a wrench on the nuts? It seems to me that putting it in gear, holding the drum brake, and going at these two nuts with the impact wrench might be placing unusual strains on various bits that were not designed to take it.

Or is that exactly what you do and I am just being unnecessarily squeamish?

 

[john zibell]

You are being squeamish. With an impact wrench the job goes just fine. You don't even need to put the bike in gear and lock the brake for removal. I still prefer to use a torque wrench for assembly. Just be sure the alinement marks are where they should be for removal and installation.

 

[AndrewGelling]

So for reassembly... Anything to swap beside the gasket and maybe updating to a pinless nut? Though since I am buying the pin nut socket, it seems a waste to replace that nut. I have no reason to suspect a problem, but what about the oil pump? Shall I apply any assembly goo to the shafts when I reinstall the sprocket? Somewhere I read a reference to their being loc tite on the cam and crank nuts? Do they need it? I believe it was Pete Roper who said in some thread to just leave the two now empty holes in the case, for the old tensioner bracket, open. Is that accurate? And aside from torquing appropriately and the lock tabs, is there anything to do to the two bolts that I will be using for the new tensioner, ie, antiseize or loc tite?

Also, I will be replacing the cylinders/pistons for a gilardoni set this winter. Does that impact what I should tackle in the timing chest, or should I just go ahead and button the timing chest first?

Other than the fact that I could hear the chain slapping around (it had indeed worn a groove in the cover) the bike runs great.

Sorry to be johnny-questions, but I'd like to be thorough, and each thread on the topic covers it a little differently.

 

[john zibell]

Yes, replace the crank shaft seal in the cover. You can button up the timing chest before you do the cylinders.

 

[JayDeeca]

........ So John, how do I keep the crankshaft from spinning while I use a wrench on the nuts? It seems to me that putting it in gear, holding the drum brake, and going at these two nuts with the impact wrench might be placing unusual strains on various bits that were not designed to take it.

Or is that exactly what you do and I am just being unnecessarily squeamish?

Andrew;
I just replaced the timing chain and tensioner on my SPII, in frame. Because I didn't think there was room for my impact wrench with the front wheel and fender in the way, I chose to use the rope trick to hold the engine for both removal and reinstallation. It works very well, and is a far less aggressive approach to it than using the impact wrench. Just make sure you are approaching TDC compression before using the rope.
JD

 

[Mc Tool]

I made a thing that fits into the timing inspection hole and locks the flywheel / ring gear , but now Ive gone and lost it :roll:

 

[john zibell]

If the wheel is in the way, jack up the engine and remove the front wheel and fender. That is how I do them. Much easier than removing the engine.

 

[OldJock]

Andrew

John Z will maybe confirm but if you are removing the sprockets to install a linkless chain it might be worth taking a look at the cam thrust plate. The bronze plate held in by 3 bolts run your finger over it and check its not ridged. I replaced mine when I was in there.

As far as the now redundant bolt holes, I don't think it makes any odds, some blank, some replace with bolts and it doesn't seem to make any difference.

I did use some Loctite on the hex nut I replaced the standard crank nut with. If your keeping the pin style nut I'd just get a new loctab and not use loctite anywhere and TBH I think the pin nut arrangement with locktab is actually a better setup..................Having a Ducati mind I do have a pathological hatred of Loctite; Ducati seem to use the dammed stuff everywhere

John

 

[AndrewGelling]

Thanks everyone. I've got the front wheel and fender off, and so will use the impact wrench, and also check that thrust plate. But what of that oil pump? Obviously I am no master mechanic, but it seems like a critical bit. And Out of curiousity, what is that rope trick?

I am realizing I have got all of this guzzi specific info, shop manuals, parts lists, guzziology, greg bender's site... But my basic mechanical experience is limited, so knowledge like when to use the various goos such as grease, antiseize, loctite, etc is lacking. Can anyone recommend a good resource that they like? A sort of beginners guide to rebuilding engines. There are plenty of intro level maintenance books, and performance tuning books, but in between is a bit of a black hole. You have alll been very helpful, but I hate asking basic questions, like, "do I grease the crank spindle before installing the sprocket."

 

[john zibell]

The oil pumps on the old engines are nearly bullet proof. It is rare for one to fail. Two bolts and it is in your hand. It is a two gear pump. If you must check it, remove it and feel for any lateral play in the shafts and look for galling on the gears. My guess is that all will be fine unless the bike has nearly 500K miles and the shafts are worn. As for lube on assembly, I'd just put some engine oil on the chain (after it is in place), and on the lip seal that is in the cover. Dry starts could damage a seal. If you feel the need for anti seize, a small amount on the cover screws will make it easier for the next person. As for the "experience" you are looking for, that would be gained in an apprenticeship. We unfortunately don't have that system any more. So now you get that through the experience of others on forums like this one. I don't know of any general practice manuals out there for the type of information you are asking for.

I've been turning wrenches for over 50 years (started when I was a kid on the farm with tractors). My dad is a trade school trained mechanic and he taught me what he knew. I'm still learning. You never stop.

 

[Guzzi_don]

I made a thing that fits into the timing inspection hole and locks the flywheel / ring gear , but now Ive gone and lost it :roll:

Hey Mac can you describe the tool to me or even a picture would be better.

Thanks

 

[Chris R]

But my basic mechanical experience is limited, so knowledge like when to use the various goos such as grease, antiseize, loctite, etc is lacking.

That is a bit like asking what brand of beer do you prefer - you will get a lot of different answers and some heated opinions. The same goes with motor oil.

Here is my dogma:

In general whenever you assemble an engine it doesn't hurt to dunk anything that moves or touches anything that moves in engine oil. I do not use 'Lubriplate' or other engine assembly greases as I think they cause more problems then they are worth - although Pete Roper swears by a Penrite product not available here and I trust his opinion as I do John's.

I spin the oil pump up (chain off) using an electric drill with a suitable socket and check that oil is reaching the rockers before I install the chain. Then I know that I have oil on all the critical surfaces and I won't be spinning the engine dry.

Antiseize is great stuff and I use it on virtually all threads with the exception of things that I Loctite. Be aware there are two versions: one copper based (a.k.a 'Copaslip') and a nickel based one. The copper based one is for steel on steel only. The nickel based one is for everything so that is the one I buy. If you use Copaslip on steel into aluminum it may seize. Shame as I think the copper looks nice.

I think in most cases any non-hardening sealer will do - gaskets need to move as things heat up and cool down. Everyone has their favourite: some people swear by Hylomar, others Indian Head Shellac etc.

In general I use Permatex Hi-Tack Spray because it is easy to use, easy to get hold of and clean up and lets me position the gasket. On the base, sump and valve cover gaskets I spray one side and grease the other so that I can, hopefully, reuse them.

Any decent wheel bearing grease will do. For certain applications I like to use Mobil 1 synthetic grease as it does not wash off with water and is friendly to rubber.

No fancy sealant is going to help you if your rings are shot, your crankcase breather is stuck closed, the surfaces you want to seal are not flat or the bolts are not torqued correctly.

In general I do not like using silicone/RTV as it is messy and may go places I don't want it to go like oil ways. I do use High temp silicone on the exhaust flange in place of the normal gasket but I put a bead on the pipe, let it dry and then assemble it.

Loctite is a godsend if used correctly. DO clean the threads with their cleaner or brake clean before hand. Do not apply copious amounts - a drop is all that is needed. Anything more than the low strength (blue) version will need heat to break the bond. Use it only on bolts where there is no mechanical lock and you are worried about it coming apart. I use the red stuff (high strength) on the clutch assembly bolts (which are one time use) and Loctite PRT on the bolts holding the rear main crank carrier. These bolts go through to the crankcase and need to be sealed against oil.

Do not use their new 'Loctite' in gel form - it looks like a lipstick container. We used this at work and discovered that it was useless. It may have been a bad batch but I don't want to experiment.

Loctite has a new anerobic flange sealant that I would like to try as where it is not required it should just wipe away.

Carroll Smith's books, although not specific to motorbikes, are very good at explaining why things are engineered the way they are.