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CARC Check

Toadride

Toadride

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
272
Location
Nelson
Had the Big Gal out for a good couple of hundred mile run today and am pleased to say she is running top notch. Todd's flash with PC5 and AT has her singing like a Diva and I've got nothing but good things to say about it.
But, a number of you may have heard that a while back now I was rear ended (no, not in prison :lol: ) and, altho damage was fairly minor, the rear wheel was hit hard enough to start a seam split in the tire. Tire replaced, all is well. It also caused some oil seepage at the CV(?) joint boot and has me wanting to look into that.
So, today I was stopped in an incline down to the ferry with engine off and in gear. As the line started to move I pulled in the clutch and coasted, in gear, down the ramp abit. I could hear and feel a clunka clunka clunka. I am suspecting the CV unless someone here tells me it's normal. I also remember reading someone (Pete Roper maybe?) saying removing the CARC is an easy half hour job. Is there any proceedure posting with pics on this. And once, with wheel off and disconnected , is it on a spline shaft that you can just pull back and slide it off?
Any and all input will be greatly appreciated here.
A slightly worried Toad. :?:
 
Yes splines that pull apart. And should be lubed occasionally too.
Getting it lined up and back on can be fun.
 
Put it up on the centerstand in gear and let it idle and see if you hear the same (common) noise. I have some concerns about the CARC as I voiced when I delivered it to you. The drive is pretty much not user serviceable, but Roper posted a how to if you think it should be looked at for your insurance claim. It's not leaking, no?
 
Followed up on Todd's suggestion. 1st gear on center stand. Klunka klunka klunka from the Ujoint area. Looks like my Guzzi ralley is off for this weekend. :cry:
 
Toadride said:
Followed up on Todd's suggestion. 1st gear on center stand. Klunka klunka klunka from the Ujoint area. Looks like my Guzzi ralley is off for this weekend. :cry:
Click to expand...

Won't all shaft drives clunk while in the air unladen as you have maxed out the range of the ujoint.......

If I do it on my Stelvio, it will clunk if it gets going fast enough. At a slow speed (and I mean barely moving) it makes no noise, but anything over say 8 to 10 KPH it clunks. To me that is normal.
 
That's reassuring but this clunks in 1st at idle. Snipped the boot ties and peeled it back to have a look at the ujoint and it seems normal spinning the wheel in neutral. No noise. Normal. Under load a different matter. Whatever the shaft runs thru at the front just behind the ujoint I think has been knocked out of whack. Think I'm gonna remove the CARC
 
At low speed I think what you are seeing is the backlash in the drivetrain that shows up due to the power pulses - on the center stand the extreme angle makes it seem worse

However since yu go punched in the back better safe then sorry by pulling it and checking it out - if nothing else it's a good chance to lube the splines and shock linkages - But I guess I'd have to wonder why whoever did the insurance estimate didn't push to do this as exploratory for the estimate
 
CARC and swing arm removal is a relatively easy job.

Toadride said:
is it on a spline shaft that you can just pull back and slide it off?
Click to expand...

No, you have to take the swing arm off to get the drive shaft off. If you did manage to get if off, you'd have to take the swing arm off anyway to align the UJ splines the output shaft.
Do you have the swing are lock nut tool? If not get one from Todd. The drive shaft is held onto the trans by a ring clip seated the the UJ spline. What I do is slide the UJ towards the trans (moves about 1mm), then whack it with a dead blow hammer on the drive shaft yoke to avoid putting a load on the spider. Should pop right off.

Search the forum for Roper's procedure.
 
boxermoose said:
But I guess I'd have to wonder why whoever did the insurance estimate didn't push to do this as exploratory for the estimate
Click to expand...
That was me, and it was a time issue of when Doug wanted to come pick it up from when I picked it up and got parts.

Doug, the clunking is normal, which is why I asked. Is it the same sound?
It certianly can't hurt to pull and inspect it. Post your findings.
 
Maybe that is where I am not clear on the test when you say in first at idle. On mine, at idle, on the stand, I don't even get to fully release the clutch before it clunks. No reving at all. Perfectly normal given the joint is at such an extreme angle.

That being said, a jolt from behind is not a good thing. I am sure it put a lot of stress on the ujoint and the forces worked their way up. Best to call the insurance and let them pay for a shop to look it over. Oil leaking in the boot is not a good thing, but I would not be surprised to see it after the hit you had. My guess is gearbox oil working its way back.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.


Toadride said:
That's reassuring but this clunks in 1st at idle. Snipped the boot ties and peeled it back to have a look at the ujoint and it seems normal spinning the wheel in neutral. No noise. Normal. Under load a different matter. Whatever the shaft runs thru at the front just behind the ujoint I think has been knocked out of whack. Think I'm gonna remove the CARC
Click to expand...
 
Toadride said:
Whatever the shaft runs thru at the front just behind the ujoint I think has been knocked out of whack. Think I'm gonna remove the CARC
Click to expand...

The shaft doesn't run through anything but a hollow swing arm. There is no carrier bearing like on the Tonti bikes.

For your own piece of mind it is probably a good thing to drop the swingarm and shaft just to check everything. If the swing arm bearings and suspension linkage hasn't been greased yet, this would be the opportunity to do so. As Pete has said, the only cush drive for the power train is the rubber imbedded in the driveshaft. If that took a hit, it might make some noise.
 
Wow! The clunking is normal? That's a surprise and a relief. :lol: But I will pull to check if it's doable.

Not sure about this swingarm locknut tool. I've got everything from breaker bars to impact sockets. Looking at Pete Roper's CARC breakdown I don't see anything on the swingarm removal. He's already got it apart. But, I'll give it a try. Better safe than sorry. Thing is it never seeped oil before the butt bump. Then it did. And, when it's on the sidestand the joint seems at a real odd angle. Maybe I should get a pic of that.

Good news is I may be attending the Kootenay Guzzi Gathering this Friday after all. :D .
 
The clunking shouldn't be a surprise. The system isn't able to work 'Unloaded'. The firing intervals are uneven, therefore the crank and down the driveline accelerate and decelerate unevenly. Backlash in the dogs in the gearbox and the splines throughout the entire driveline mean that the rear wheel, which is trying to operate as a flywheel for the whole system simply doesn't have the mass to damp the pulses so the whole driveline starts rattling and shaking and lashing back and forth. No, it isn't good for anything in the driveline but it was never designed to work like that. If you bought an aeroplane and then tried to use it as a boat everybody would think you are barmy! Same thing holds true if you take a DRIVELINE and then try to get it to work without puting any DRIVE through it!

If you took a rear end shunt the most likely bits to take a bath are going to be the wheel rim, then the swing arm, then the swing arm and possibly the CARC bearings. The actual shaft is designed to move in relation to the bevelbox splines. Even if you took a hit hard enough to bend the swing arm it is unlikely any undue force would be imposed on the trunnions of the driveshaft.

If there is a problem with the CARC bevelbox it will most likely manifest itself as a leak around the 'Big' seal adjacent to the wheel rather than anywhere else.

Pete.

Pete
 
It's sounding more and more like it's normal. But, normal when working at an angle. How about when I was sitting on it, rolling down an incline, engine off, in gear whith clutch pulled in. Imean the shaft was relatively straight with me on it. And that's when I first heard the clunk clunk. Not the first time I've rolled the bike in this manner either.
 
Toadride said:
It's sounding more and more like it's normal. But, normal when working at an angle. How about when I was sitting on it, rolling down an incline, engine off, in gear whith clutch pulled in. Imean the shaft was relatively straight with me on it. And that's when I first heard the clunk clunk. Not the first time I've rolled the bike in this manner either.
Click to expand...

Are you sure you were not just hearing the drive lash from a slightly engaged clutch. I have had mine do that, but usually when it is cold. I attributed it to the "brrrrrrr" the clutch makes when it is cold (assuming this is not a full release when cold). Roll it in gear with clutch in and get a bit of a clunk. Never does it when warm.

Another one that fooled me for a while (and lately it does not take much) is I back the bike out of the garage will on it. My foot would hit the foot rest and retract it making a clunk. Thought for sure I had an issue then figured out what was happening. Not saying this is happening to you.
 
Doug, as I think about your issue I can't see any way your accident could hurt the U-joint. The swingarm is fixed to the frame (Yes it does pivot up and down but it can't move fwd). The drive shaft itself is on splines at each end. You would have to shatter the CARC and/or the swingarm to put any compression on the U-joint. With all that said, it's still a good idea to pull the entire rear suspension and grease all the bearings. It's not a hard job, maybe a couple hours. I posted a writeup either here or at wild guzzi. If you need photos I can send them.

Peter Y.
 
pete roper said:
If there is a problem with the CARC bevelbox it will most likely manifest itself as a leak around the 'Big' seal adjacent to the wheel rather than anywhere else.
Click to expand...
Thanks for confirming my conclusion and what I told Doug. I didn't have time to put many miles on it before it left, but he sure did from SoCal to his home.
 
You guys have all been great. Peter Y, your logic is absolutely true to form. I will be spending as long as it takes to just pull and inspect. Pete R and Todd, the CARC has no leaks and with the rear tire replacement I did ask the tech to examin the rear wheel bearings and he reported everything as new and clean. I will button her up and continue to ride with the hope she doesn't break in half. :lol:
My living circumstance now is that I am literally hundreds and hundreds of miles from a dealer. My closest choices are Spokane or Kamloops. I have heard good things about Spokane and may do an overnight for a service and good check over. Peter Y, pics would be nice.
 
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