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2nd CAM and TAPPET recall !!!

I would think this would be a massive topic of debate on the UK site as most issues seem to be from that area.
As for possible temperature issues causing this I have mentioned before that I have a friend with an old Ducati Paso. It has two large oil coolers and no thermostat. During cool weather he puts foam in the ducts to block off air flow. If he did not do this the oil would never come up to temp. If you told him you should not need to do that with a modern motorcycle he would laugh at you and likely suggest that you should buy a Honda if you do not want to put in the effort that owning an Italian lady requires.

Whatever the cause, it does not appear to be a uni-lateral issue at this stage as most do not have this problem. If it was as simple as bad tappets they would all still be failing. There must be other factors that continue to cause the issue in some regions while in other regions it is mostly a resolved issue. It could be parts supply (the bad parts are still being supplied, seems unlikely), temperature or oil quality issues (low ZDDP levels due to govmnt regs or water contamination from not burning the water off), or poor set up/maintenance. Or something else entirely, but there is likely something different causing the issues.
 
What he said.

It has to be circumstantial.

Failures here are rare. They do still happen but it seems that one of the common factors is the oil used. Another one is length of trips. The third is the climate. Something about certain combinations of these three factors seems to promote failure.

Unfortunately I've never had an 8V fail so all my ideas are done by observation of machines that work and remote diagnosis. While I do sympathise with those who are suffering failures there seems to be little effort on the part of owners to pool information and try and analyse the cause of failure. It seems that it is far more important to whinge and blame Piaggio while puffing oneself up with spluttering indignation. That achieves nothing, apart from making one look like a tool, so how about some serious co-operation and analysis? Has anyone regularly had oil analysis done prior to failure? Has anyone apart from me had tappets hardness tested? Has anybody even bothered taking pictures of the failed parts?.

Its hard to try and help people who don't seem willing to help themselves.....

Pete
 
pete roper said:
What he said.

It has to be circumstantial.

Failures here are rare. They do still happen but it seems that one of the common factors is the oil used. Another one is length of trips. The third is the climate. Something about certain combinations of these three factors seems to promote failure.

Unfortunately I've never had an 8V fail so all my ideas are done by observation of machines that work and remote diagnosis. While I do sympathise with those who are suffering failures there seems to be little effort on the part of owners to pool information and try and analyse the cause of failure. It seems that it is far more important to whinge and blame Piaggio while puffing oneself up with spluttering indignation. That achieves nothing, apart from making one look like a tool, so how about some serious co-operation and analysis? Has anyone regularly had oil analysis done prior to failure? Has anyone apart from me had tappets hardness tested? Has anybody even bothered taking pictures of the failed parts?.

Its hard to try and help people who don't seem willing to help themselves.....

Pete
Click to expand...
Pete the truth is that a significant proportion of the people that now buy Italian bikes simply shouldnt. Italian bikes always have and always will demand something from their owners and unless you are prepaired to make that input then you should "walk on by" to the UJM shop.
But hey thats what I love about them......NOT anybody can happily own them long term.
And to all the sooky la la's that cant go the distance......thanks. You are probably keeping them in business for the rest of us.
Ciao
 
While I see your point Phil I don't wholly agree. Thing is my Guzzis have rarely ever needed anything other than routine maintenance and replacement of parts when they wear out over what I consider a perfectly acceptable lifespan.

My Griso 1200 was one of the very early ones that should by all accounts of melted into a pool of molten slag! Eaten its cams! Misted its dash! Oh and probably a host of other things. The problem is it hasn't! It is a stone-axe reliable 'Turn Key' proposition.

When I got it, recognising that it was a completely new design I WAS extremely cautious about checking and adjusting stuff. I essentially gave it a full service and tune before I even took it out of the shop. Not only did this enable me to see what sort of assembly quality I could expect but it also meant that I knew with a degree of clarity the baseline I was going to be working from. Over the first couple of thousand Kms I checked stuff like tappet clearances religiously every few hundred Kms and found that initially the gaps closed up rapidly, (which may explain why they were so damned loose ex-factory!). Now if the gaps do close up initially for whatever reason it may well be that the tappets end up riding the cams. Now THERE'S a recipe for tappet failure right there!

BUT despite my bike having the 'Soft' tappets they never failed and still looked just fine when I eventually swapped them at 20,000km+. The bike before mine did, the bike after mine did! Why? NFI!

Thing is I've been chasing a 'definitive' cause for this problem for five years now and I've done all sorts of shit. Monitoring oil temperature. Getting oil samples analysed. Disassembling and inspecting the top end of my bike so many times now that I could probably do it while blindfold and pissed as a parrot and it remains stubbornly, irritatingly, unburstably reliable. The only thing I do that is over and above the service schedule is to change the oil about every 6,000km rather than letting it go out to ten. Not because I don't think the oil is up to it per-se but because I want to drain out the water and nasty bi-products of combustion. Is it worth it? Once again I have no idea but my bike refuses to break.

I probably don't beat on mine as hard as some do and I know for a fact I have greater mechanical sympathy than many but my G8 gets used and used hard quite frequently. For something that is supposed to be a fragile, under-engineered grenade it seems to cop abuse remarkably well! I don't think its an 'Owner' thing per-se but I do think that there is some sort of a mindset that seems to think that if you moan enough somebody will miraculously fix it for you. The world doesn't work like that........

Pete
 
Hey Pete, have you ever considered that the damage may initiate in the first start up after engine assembly or cam replacement?
I'm not intimately familiar with the 8V engine but I know with the daytona engine I'm not that impressed with the way they provide oil supply to the cam and lifter area.
Just wondering whether it might be an idea to remove the inner valve springs when installing new cams and lifters and break them in for 30 min then refit the inner springs.
Routinely done on Chev engines and such running non roller lifters and double springs.
Just a thought.
Ciao
 
No inner springs Phil. Single 'Beehive' springs to combat float. Personally when I reassemble mine I slather the whole sorry lot with about a tube of assembly lube. Does it do any good? Buggered if I know but it can't do any harm.

Pete
 
Can't say I disagree with Pete, it would be nice to just try and sort it out and he has done more than anyone on investigating as far as I can tell from my limited internet fumblings.

I'm going to stick with it and see what happens, as I said in my post Piaggio seem to be reasonably helpful. On the other hand I can easily understand somebody getting irate when their £10,000 bike has major failure.

As for not being the 'right' type of person, that's just like saying all UK mecahnics are crap. Personally, I've owned lots of Italian and British bikes, and I find the extra involvement in their use a bonus, as do most of the people I've met with Guzzis. I did intend to do the basic maintenance myself on the Griso but can't now in case I ever need to make a claim, though I think I will do my own interim oil changes, etc. with the correct oil before anyone says it.

What I don't get is the animosity from people lucky enough not to have any issues. Maybe it's just how life works on internet forums, or because it's gone on so long, but then that's more evidence of a problem.

I dunno.
 
pete roper said:
No inner springs Phil. Single 'Beehive' springs to combat float. Personally when I reassemble mine I slather the whole sorry lot with about a tube of assembly lube. Does it do any good? Buggered if I know but it can't do any harm.

Pete
Click to expand...
Oh ok Pete,that shoots down that theory then.
Ciao
 
Question for Pete. Is the oil supply of the new Cali better than the current 8V engine? I don't want to hijack the tread, curious about making progress with the new engines.
 
Head castings for the Cali 14 are a major re-design with cast in and much larger cooling galleries rather than the previous drillings. While assisting cooling of the important areas of the head casting it will have no effect I can see on the lubrication of the cambox which comes via the high pressure lubrication circuit.

Pete
 
Good day brand new to GuzziTech ...i have been reading this thread with interest as i nearly purchased a 2013 Griso 1200, but opted instead for a pristine 2007 1100 model re much lower purchase price.
Two questions how are the 2013 1200 8v working out and how are the 1100 4V motors as compared , any issues there?
Cheers
Keener
 
keenerkeen07 said:
Good day brand new to GuzziTech ...i have been reading this thread with interest as i nearly purchased a 2013 Griso 1200, but opted instead for a pristine 2007 1100 model re much lower purchase price.
Two questions how are the 2013 1200 8v working out and how are the 1100 4V motors as compared , any issues there?
Cheers
Keener
Click to expand...

Both are fine machines. The 1200 simply has 25 more HP and a shitload more torque.

Pete
 
Hi All,
An update on repairs. Some parts have arrived, but the new cam carriers will be several weeks apparently. Will have to wait, as work is been done on warranty, as defective parts were fitted at zero miles. Also new rocker covers to be fitted as original ones incompatible with cylinder head modifications.
 
Hi everybody,

The Griso has just started making a really bad sound from the left hand valves. Exactly the same sound it made before I got the camshaft changed last time. This will be the THIRD camshaft change on this side. They only seem to last about 5,000 kms. Surely there must be a solution to this. What should I do? What is the mechanic doing wrong? Or is it an inherent problem?

Any thoughts welcome.
 
When the parts were replaced after the failure was the sump removed and cleaned? We're the pick-up strainers removed and cleaned and inspected? Was the timing chest opened and the oil pump inspected? Was the oil cooler removed and it and the lines back flushed and cleaned?

If the above was done correctly were the camboxes and new components slathered in assembley lube? Is your motor an A5 or an A8? We're the correct cams ordered and installed? Is the correct type of lubricant being used?

There are a thousand reasons why an incorrectly Repaired/Serviced/Maintained/Used motor will fail. I for one simply cannot understand what people are doing wrong. And why is it only happening regularly in certain markets?

Do you only use your bike for short trips? Has it been particularly wet or chilly when you're riding?

Pete
 
FYI I had the recall done prior to delivery of my leftover '09 Griso in January 2010. About to cross 24K miles now with no issues (last two valve adjusts required no adjustments). I ride on average about 160 miles a week (40 mile legs each trip) on 95% open highway in mostly hot/humid southern Florida climate. Use factory oil drain schedule with the factory recommended 10W-60 AGIP.
 
Goodvibes said:
FYI I had the recall done prior to delivery of my leftover '09 Griso in January 2010. About to cross 24K miles now with no issues
Click to expand...

That's the same for my Griso....except it's just failed after 4 years / 29500 miles. It's currently in my dealers waiting to see if Piaggio UK will stick by their statement to the UK owners club that they will continue to fix bikes outside the normal warranty on the condition they have a full service history at an approved Guzzi dealership. Luckily when the problem with the 8v engines was first rumoured I had the foresight to make damn sure I kept using the dealership. Once it's fixed I will be trying to get Piaggio UK to state specifically how long they will continue with that policy. I don't want to be stuck with the problem again in another 4 years / 29500 miles !!

Although I have ridden in damp weather (it is the UK after all) I don't do short trips - usually at least 50 miles on open roads and more normally 250+ miles a day - so the engine should be hot enough to get rid of any condensation and stop the oil turning to mayonnaise. I'm more worried the damage was done when I recently got stuck in gridlock traffic in very hot weather which is when I first heard the engine noise had changed dramatically.

assuming Piaggio agree & fix it I will the consider my options.....either go back to a 2 valve Guzzi or trade up to one of the new 8v with roller cam followers. I am currently trying to find out if anyone has had one of those fail - anyone on here know?
 
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