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8V Failure info.

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Re:Got an 8V cam......

Hi Steve,

Can you tell us your VIN?
 
Re:Got an 8V cam......

Dec,

VIN#ZGULSE0057M111504 (was on the registry page) :)

Rene,

Yeah the weather has been awful. But that aside I've needed the thing to get about on, on occasion. IIRC one pump lubes the crank, the other is for the head gear.

S
 
Re:Got an 8V cam......

Here's the latest poop, all USA 8V motors get new cam followers, if bike has been run (demo or sold) they get inspected, cam also replaced if found damaged, motor flushed, new 10/60, all done. Service Bulliten to come out w/ new parts soon.

I got to see the new Navigator Diagnostic software, works nice w/bluetooth, workin w/ Brad was a nice experiance.

Stelvio and Griso get the update , all USA 8V.
 
Re:Got an 8V cam......

Im not a metallurgist, but i have SOME experience with heat treating/alloys etc. HOWEVER

why the spot on the CAM is worn as a result of a soft tappet doesnt make sense. UNLESS

the cam is too hard (or the steel is crappy), and the impact with the followers caused micro cracks in the crystalline structure. AS the structure began to erode as the result of more impact, the surface became abrasive, and it began to push below the case hardening level, until it reached soft material. at which point, it wore.

Just a hypothesis, but we run into situations like this in the metal shop all the time. we use a tool that is too hard for a part where there is impact (IE using an aluminum insert for climb cutting steel), the tool's tip cracks, and then the tool dulls very quicly.. too hard can cause a failure. It sounds to me like the part was heat treated, but never relieved (tempered) or cooled too quickly after relieving.
 
Re: Re:Got an 8V cam......

V700Steve said:
Here's the latest poop, all USA 8V motors get new cam followers, if bike has been run (demo or sold) they get inspected, cam also replaced if found damaged, motor flushed, new 10/60, all done. Service Bulliten to come out w/ new parts soon.

I got to see the new Navigator Diagnostic software, works nice w/bluetooth, workin w/ Brad was a nice experiance.

Stelvio and Griso get the update , all USA 8V.


So I wonder if the Canadian Stelvio's will be included. I have been told that mine did not qualify for the existing recall.
 
vin# zgulzc00x9w112361

If you need the engine number you will need to tell me where to find it.
 
Hi
I found out my Stelvio needed the cam followers replaced when I checked with a dealer closer to me. It overheated in traffic on the way home from the selling dealer. I called Valley Yamaha and they asked me the VIN and gave me the news. Why the stocking dealer didn't do it in the year they had it sitting on the showroom floor ,I will never know. Now I have been without my bike for 4 weeks after riding it for a couple of days. I hope this isn't a sign of future grief.
 
There were a couple discussions on this on the Griso pages, this was my experience with my 8V.

312griso8v said:
I had a great experience with Moto Guzzi USA in NYC. The dealer I bought my G8V, when it was brand new, all of a sudden stopped 'being a MG dealer' so when I asked the dealer about the papers in my Maintenance booklet labeled "Warranty Activation"; he told me "don't worry about that". Not knowing any better and figuring that everyone is an honest person. I rode home figuring he already activated it for me. After I got home and read more on guzzitech forums, I decided to call a different dealership and have them check to see if my G8V (#111898) fell under the cam follower recall. Indeed it did fall under the campaign and no, it wasn't serviced. And no, the warranty was never activated. I called up Moto Guzzi USA in New York, NY and talked to a customer service rep there. He handled my case and was very informative, kept me in the loop the whole way through and from first call to warranty activation was only 4 business days. I don't have any complaints about MG HQ in the US.

Not sure what kind of negative experiences other people have had, but I can't say anything bad about Piaggio/Guzzi (except for that dealer, who isn't a dealer anymore.. for good reason).

-Phil

I had a similar problem as you regarding the warranty recall. Although, mine never failed..

I feel your frustrations...
 
The previous owner of my Stelvio had the recall work done at a (now shuttered ) Quebec dealer before selling the bike to me.

When "checking in" at Valley Yamaha not only did they not have any record of the recall being done, but as far as Piaggo knew, the bike had never been sold. The previous owner has seen the paperwork for the recall as his dealer at one point tried to charge him for the work (he declined to pay). So they took the paperwork back.

Which means I need to bring the bike in for an "inspection" to ensure the work was actually completed properly. Not such a big deal except for the entire day or more it may take of my time.

Since I have two other warranty claims awaiting approval (bubbling paint around gas cap, fuel sensor fix) and a 20k service about due, I'll just wait until they are approved and get all the work done at once. Hopefully before spring!
 
:unsure: Mmmm. This makes me worried. I have recently got a 2008 Griso. It has a full service history, but, having only done 2500 miles, this doesn't amount to much. In the service book it says that the top end re-call has been done. The bike runs very well, and is commendably quiet for a Guzzi. Should I now keep a regular check on the valve clearances, or just check them at the recommended intervals? I don't push the bike particularly hard, and it has a sump full of fully synthetic oil. This is my 4th Guzzi twin, and all the others have been bomb proof in the engine department. I sincerely hope my 8v follows suit. I am over the moon with this beautiful creation, but reading about these problems just gives me an uneasy feeling which, I hope, will prove to be unjustified. Thank you. Mick.
 
If the recall has been done properly with the correct bits there should be no issues. I have yet to hear of one having a failure if the job has been done correctly.

If the tappets start to fail it happens VERY quickly. Checking the tappets won't save it. I would simply check 'em yourself, (Add a set of NGK plug caps at the same time.) and then again in another 1500km. You'll probably find that in a couple of thousand km the clearances will stop moving, pretty much forever!

Half yer luck on having a quiet top end. Perhaps yours got the new shimmed cams during the recall. Mine sounds like a cement mixer full of bricks! Always has!!! :lol:

Pete
 
....so, as the proud nw owner of an 09 stelvio, should I be worried about signs of potential cam failure? What are the signs? And, (3000 miles) take it in for valve- clearance check-up? Please advise.
 
Depends on whether your dealer is aware of the problem with the early bikes and whether he reads and acts on the info on the Servicemotoguzzi site.

Best idea is to ask them to check the VIN# against the list of affected bikes.

The problem is obvious when it occurs. The already noisy top end becomes cacophonic in it's racket. Removing the rocker cover will reveal way too large valve clearances and usually loads of frag from the torched tappets.

If your machine IS within the recall range and it hasn't been addressed I strongly advise against riding it until the replacement work has been carried out!

Pete
 
I apologize because I use a translator.

Hey talking to one of the best mechanical guzzis in Spain, told me that guzzi changed tapets material from the new reference and HD begins ....., is de four change, Guzzi know the problem and is working on a final solution may in the future again be another recall.

Talking to this mechanism, believes part of the problem is due to the entry of moisture into the oil, as is known this is deposited as mud on top of the covers of the engine near the camshaft and tapets, this in the other engines is not a problem because the trees are down and are the rods that power the valancin at the top.

In my case i found a lot of mud just when I opened to check the valve clearance and this coincided with the rupture of the cap of the boid-by system when I discovered oil off the left side of the bike just Callender above exhaust manifold left cylinder.


However he commented that his experience is that it is normal to build up the mud without any input so obvious, and my question is where ?.....
even told me that the same oil it produces for its characteristics??

What I can say is that overfill the crankcase oil causes this come out for lower engine gaskets cylinder head before so the system is not waterproof and can cause moist air inlets of the exterior.

if the humidity is the problem, instead of dry weather these bikes have no problem.

Ay finally .... is very sad that every time there are fewer old users of these engines, and I think this is something that is going to pay guzzi, it is clear that without reliable people are frightened and also does not recommend brand. I think for the good of guzzi is an issue that must give priority solution.
 
katacrak said:
Hey talking to one of the best mechanical guzzis in Spain, told me that guzzi changed tapets material from the new reference and HD begins ....., is de four change, Guzzi know the problem and is working on a final solution may in the future again be another recall.

Old tappets were chilled cast iron. New tappets are forged steel with an HLD coating. I think it highly unlikely that there would be another recall as if the original one was done correctly with the right parts, the correct oil is used and the service schedule is followed then the engine is stone axe reliable.

Talking to this mechanism, believes part of the problem is due to the entry of moisture into the oil, as is known this is deposited as mud on top of the covers of the engine near the camshaft and tapets, this in the other engines is not a problem because the trees are down and are the rods that power the valancin at the top.

There will always be quite large quantities of moisture in the oil. Water is one of the major by-products of combustion and there will always be some leakage past the rings. That water will tend to condense on theinside of the rocker covers as the will usually be bellow the temperature at which water will condense, especially during colder months. The cams and timing gear including the tappets are fed by large quantities of oil drawn from the sump and while you will, if you remove the sump, sometimes find small quantities of water the lubrication pump pick-up has a weir around it that will exclude watger quite effectively. As long as the motor reaches operating temperature and remains there for a while most moisture will sublime off any way and be expelled through the breather system.

In my case i found a lot of mud just when I opened to check the valve clearance and this coincided with the rupture of the cap of the boid-by system when I discovered oil off the left side of the bike just Callender above exhaust manifold left cylinder.

The nasty little condom over the spare pipe on the condensor box is prone to being holed by poorly routed throttle cables I'm told but I haven't seen this myself yet. Not a big deal I'd say. Pay attention to cables and fit a more robust cap!

However he commented that his experience is that it is normal to build up the mud without any input so obvious, and my question is where ?.....

See explanation above.

even told me that the same oil it produces for its characteristics??

How? Magic!!

What I can say is that overfill the crankcase oil causes this come out for lower engine gaskets cylinder head before so the system is not waterproof and can cause moist air inlets of the exterior.

Yes. Overfilling the crankcase will cause leaks! Usually the seals will leak before any gaskets though. The crankcase will always be running positive pressure in service though so you are NOT going to be getting air, moist or otherwise, drawn into the engine while it is running.

if the humidity is the problem, instead of dry weather these bikes have no problem.

Humidity is a minor concern. Using the machine for only short trips willbe more harmfull.

Ay finally .... is very sad that every time there are fewer old users of these engines, and I think this is something that is going to pay guzzi, it is clear that without reliable people are frightened and also does not recommend brand. I think for the good of guzzi is an issue that must give priority solution.

Well? Stop scare-mongering. The 8V engine is as strong as an Ox. as long as it is understood and treated well it won't go wrong. I have 50,000Km on mne now and have several customers with similar distances covered. Some had the recall, others didn't need it, NONE OF THEM have had a single problem with their bikes, this includes several Grisos ana acouple of Stelvios. The biggest problem Guzzi have with the motor is that there seem to be people who WANT it to be a disaster and a failure!

My customers are all happy!!!!!

Pete
 
sorry do not know how partially introduce my answers: mines are and diferent colour and not alls its very hard introduce at all.
pete roper said:
katacrak said:
Hey talking to one of the best mechanical guzzis in Spain, told me that guzzi changed tapets material from the new reference and HD begins ....., is de four change, Guzzi know the problem and is working on a final solution may in the future again be another recall.

Old tappets were chilled cast iron. New tappets are forged steel with an HLD coating. I think it highly unlikely that there would be another recall as if the original one was done correctly with the right parts, the correct oil is used and the service schedule is followed then the engine is stone axe reliable.

.....It is true that some support is a disaster and do not use the proper oil. I have a colleague who has a griso SE 2010 for the 1500 km oil change on the official service, and did not put a 10W 60 ..... to 6500 kms failure, and mechanical expert guzzi lifetime, this made ​​the repair, and use the 10w 60, and has come to break with few kms. That's why this mechanism is clear that if the oil is correct, there is another cause ..... guzzi and also believe it is also why we are still working.
Talking to this mechanism, believes part of the problem is due to the entry of moisture into the oil, as is known this is deposited as mud on top of the covers of the engine near the camshaft and tapets, this in the other engines is not a problem because the trees are down and are the rods that power the valancin at the top.

There will always be quite large quantities of moisture in the oil. Water is one of the major by-products of combustion and there will always be some leakage past the rings. That water will tend to condense on theinside of the rocker covers as the will usually be bellow the temperature at which water will condense, especially during colder months. The cams and timing gear including the tappets are fed by large quantities of oil drawn from the sump and while you will, if you remove the sump, sometimes find small quantities of water the lubrication pump pick-up has a weir around it that will exclude watger quite effectively. As long as the motor reaches operating temperature and remains there for a while most moisture will sublime off any way and be expelled through the breather system.

ok I think so, after 5500 kms opened for check valves and there was no mud. to 7500 km nowadays the noise and vibration testing and had opened for lots of mud, as I explained coincided with cap rupture.
In my case i found a lot of mud just when I opened to check the valve clearance and this coincided with the rupture of the cap of the boid-by system when I discovered oil off the left side of the bike just Callender above exhaust manifold left cylinder.
ok, i do it

The nasty little condom over the spare pipe on the condensor box is prone to being holed by poorly routed throttle cables I'm told but I haven't seen this myself yet. Not a big deal I'd say. Pay attention to cables and fit a more robust cap!


However he commented that his experience is that it is normal to build up the mud without any input so obvious, and my question is where ?.....

See explanation above.

even told me that the same oil it produces for its characteristics??

How? Magic!!

ok, at first i think the same than you....and i dont now if are chemical causes for this kind of oil and capture himidity, ...i'm no idea.

What I can say is that overfill the crankcase oil causes this come out for lower engine gaskets cylinder head before so the system is not waterproof and can cause moist air inlets of the exterior.

Yes. Overfilling the crankcase will cause leaks! Usually the seals will leak before any gaskets though. The crankcase will always be running positive pressure in service though so you are NOT going to be getting air, moist or otherwise, drawn into the engine while it is running.

ok and remember when the engine stops, the low pressure inside the cooling effect and air enters.

if the humidity is the problem, instead of dry weather these bikes have no problem.

Using the machine for only short trips willbe more harmfull.

... it is a problem for me because 95% of trips are 15 kms. round after 8 hours of work another 15 kms. back.


Ay finally .... is very sad that every time there are fewer old users of these engines, and I think this is something that is going to pay guzzi, it is clear that without reliable people are frightened and also does not recommend brand. I think for the good of guzzi is an issue that must give priority solution.

Well? Stop scare-mongering. The 8V engine is as strong as an Ox. as long as it is understood and treated well it won't go wrong. I have 50,000Km on mne now and have several customers with similar distances covered. Some had the recall, others didn't need it, NONE OF THEM have had a single problem with their bikes, this includes several Grisos ana acouple of Stelvios. The biggest problem Guzzi have with the motor is that there seem to be people who WANT it to be a disaster and a failure!

My customers are all happy!!!!!

Pete

this pick is the quantity of water inside my bike



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

.... guzzi has repaired my bike after the 2-year warranty at no cost to me, the answer guzzi customers well and I'm calm, I just worry that I have the sevice officer closer to my house, they do not meet the standards well Guzzi (oil) but I forced them to respect it to me. The bike was 3 years old and 15,000 kms. 6700 kms to the recall was made in 2009.


not my intention to create alarm, is the relevance of this engine, I am the first user interested in my bike is reliable, I love the bike when going well I think is the best bike I'll ever have, but I'm not sure the recurrence of the failure and less when I see many fellow griso 8v .... and many are selling their machines. I make short trips, I have a problem I'm near my home If I did not want to think a journey of 2000 kms and leave me lying ..... that is why others are selling and I do not.

...
 
katacrak said:
sorry do not know how partially introduce my answers: mines are and diferent colour and not alls its very hard introduce at all.
katacrak said:
No worries. I only worked out how to do the multi quote thing recently! :mrgreen:

.....It is true that some support is a disaster and do not use the proper oil. I have a colleague who has a griso SE 2010 for the 1500 km oil change on the official service, and did not put a 10W 60 ..... to 6500 kms failure, and mechanical expert guzzi lifetime, this made ​​the repair, and use the 10w 60, and has come to break with few kms. That's why this mechanism is clear that if the oil is correct, there is another cause ..... guzzi and also believe it is also why we are still working.

Yes, there probably is another cause. There have been several changes to the top end of the 8V motor. Different camboxes, different tappets and most relevant to secondary failures after the recall the fact that at some point in 2009 thr cams themselves changed. Not in terms of profile on the A5 motor but in the length of the boss that actually carries the cam lobes on the shaft. The *New* cams are significantly shorter in this area and while the early cams rellied on the width of this boss to control end float later cams have a shim to control end float. Problem is that if the *new* cam is used when a recall is performed and the shim is not installed the end float is very much greater than it should be allowing the cam to wander about in the bearings in the cambox and almost certainly this will have a damaging effect on the tappets resulting in another tappet failure.

In all the cases I've heard of where there have been secondary failures either the cam change was not known about and later cams were fitted un-shimmed into the camboxes OR cheap mineral oil was used, the oil cooked and then the tappets failed again.

It remains by belief that secondary failures are the result of people not reading the parts list or the servicemotoguzzi page rather than there being an inherent problem with the motor. I am neither a genius or a magician but I have not experienced a single secondary failure. If there is a problem? Why not?

Pete
 
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