I thought I saw a noise

[Fredly]

I'm new to the site but not to Guzzis,
I have an SE that I bought new in December 2009, it hasn't missed a beat and has never given me a moments grief.
Last Wednesday I rode in to Brisbane with a mate to have dinner at the Morrison Hotel and meet up with a group we're in, Brisbane Cafe Racers, on the way in I heard a clunking noise that seemed to be coming from both the heads, it was loud and heavy enough to make me think that something was about to fail so I nursed it the rest of the way. The noise was only there at walking pace and disappeared once the pace increased, it was also there while stationary in neutral with the clutch out and when blipping the throttle the noise followed the crank speed, the noise was also intermittent and not present at some of the traffic light stops.

The next day I scoured the Internet for clues but couldn't find reference to a similar problem so I pulled the rocker covers off and checked everything in there but found no cause for the noise, even the valve clearances were perfect, so I started the bike and soon found the noise was coming from the clutch / gearbox area so I drained the engine and gearbox oil, there was no metal fouling in either and both were quite clean.

With the option to leave it till something went bang, pulled the engine out and separated the gearbox from it then removed all the clutch parts down to the crank, removed the sump and felt for any play in the big ends and checked for anything loose, not finding anything I opened the gearbox and removed all the gears and shafts for inspection and found nothing amiss, no loose, collapsed or damaged bearings no evidence of any gear or shaft damage, so I reassembled the gearbox.

So now I'm pretty much resolved to putting it all back together and waiting for something to go bang, but I'll have a look inside the timing chest before I do.

After all this I can say that the workshop manual I bought off the Internet a few years ago is the same as the one in the downloads section of this site and is severely lacking in detail so that someone who was solely relying on it as a guide would wind up damaging their bike as a result of the lack of detailed info.

I would also like to ask a question regarding the clutch centralizing tool as shown and described in the manual, does anyone here have one or has seen one being used, I would like to know exactly what its function is, it seems from the proven to be unreliable manual that it is to centralize the "pressure plate" , the steel stamping that sits on the diaphragm springs fingers, I can't see the sense in this as the plate is held loosely by the big circlip and on mine it was clear that this was slightly off center all of its life so the tool was either usless at the factory or not used at all, it makes more sense to me to have a tool that screws into the end of the crank to mate flush with the crank end and have a shaft size that neatly fits the clutch plate drive spline to centralize the clutch plate so I made one just like that in preparation to refitting the gearbox.

If anyone has any advice on the subject I'm keen to hear it.

 

[aussiedave59]

Hi Fredly,
In the old days we would put a screwdriver to ya ear and the pointy end on the engine - it will all sound scary but some noises worse than others !! May help narrow down the source of the noise. Keep looking , but timing chain or alternator rotor are other possibles at low revs ??
Cheers, Dave

 

[john zibell]

Fredly,

I've not been in the new designed clutch system yet. On the older two plate and one plate (those old one plates were horrible (2004-6 era)) the clutch tool did just as you described, it was screwed into the end of the crank and was used to take the pressure and give a fixture to aline the plates. Sometimes you had to provide you own bolt when you purchased the too. See for a good example of the non factory tool http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php ... ts_id=2618

 

[Fredly]

Thanks Dave and John,
I used something a lot more technical to find the noise Dave, a length of garden hose, it transmits the sound so well that ya don't even have to jam it into ya ear like ya do a screwdriver.
Geez that tool looks awkward hey, I also have an LM MKV and have used a bit of broom handle to centralize the both plates at once.

 

[john zibell]

Thanks Dave and John,
I used something a lot more technical to find the noise Dave, a length of garden hose, it transmits the sound so well that ya don't even have to jam it into ya ear like ya do a screwdriver.
Geez that tool looks awkward hey, I also have an LM MKV and have used a bit of broom handle to centralize the both plates at once.

I use the factory tool as it is much simpler. Just a clone of the clutch hub gear with a bolt through it. Works very well.

 

[Fredly]

Yeah John I realized today that I need to rethink the tool I made as the pressure plate needs to go on first.

Could you post a couple of photos of the tool you use or maybe a link to some diagrams/photos of it, the workshop manual photos and description just don't make any sense to me.

 

[john zibell]

I would post a photo, but right now the site is acting strange. Attempting to post a photo could result in an IP ban. Basically the tool I have is round with teeth cut to fit the clutch plates snugly. There is a hole in the center through which a bolt is inserted then threaded into the end of the crankshaft. I've placed a wire tie on the bolt at the engine side of the tool to make extraction after use easier.

 

[Fredly]

Basically the tool I have is round with teeth cut to fit the clutch plates snugly. There is a hole in the center through which a bolt is inserted then threaded into the end of the crankshaft. I've placed a wire tie on the bolt at the engine side of the tool to make extraction after use easier.


No worries ! You've painted a good mental picture for me, I see a tool made for a clutch that is similar to my MK V, what is needed for the 8V is quite different coz the clutch has a car like diaphragm spring and drive plate that's bolted to the crank, then there's a pressed steel plate that sits on the diaphragm spring fingers, this plate is pushed by the hydraulicly operated pushrod to disengage the clutch, the plate has no hole in the center to allow access to the thread in the end of the crank.
The rest of the 8V clutch is also different to the MK V, it has just 1 plate that looks just like a car type plate, with spring dampened drive and a 22 mm female spline that takes the gearbox input shaft, the clutch plate is followed by the driven plate onto which the diaphragm spring pushes the drive plate and clutch plate.

To centralize the clutch plate I need to think a bit more about what needs to be made but it seems the tool needs to be bolted to the gearbox studs and have a shaft that has the same positioning as the gearbox input shaft, it sounds too bloody complicated to me though and looks nothing like the tool in the manual, but then I can't see how the factory tool does the job anyway, I need to see it being used, maybe I'll have to go and pester Tommy Newell, the man who runs the best Guzzi dealership in town, ( that's me greasing up to Tom coz I'm sure he's on this site somewhere).

 

[SpeedwayRN]

I had a similar noise on a Ducati. It turned out to be a ball bearing or two with flat spots on one I the camshaft ends.
The only way I found it is I was turning the bearing by hand while it was out of the bike and I just happened to feel the notches. The flat spots just happens to be turned to the race side. That's why it was intermittent. As long as he flat side wasn't making contact everything was fine.

 

[john zibell]

Basically the tool I have is round with teeth cut to fit the clutch plates snugly. There is a hole in the center through which a bolt is inserted then threaded into the end of the crankshaft. I've placed a wire tie on the bolt at the engine side of the tool to make extraction after use easier.


No worries ! You've painted a good mental picture for me, I see a tool made for a clutch that is similar to my MK V, what is needed for the 8V is quite different coz the clutch has a car like diaphragm spring and drive plate that's bolted to the crank, then there's a pressed steel plate that sits on the diaphragm spring fingers, this plate is pushed by the hydraulicly operated pushrod to disengage the clutch, the plate has no hole in the center to allow access to the thread in the end of the crank.
The rest of the 8V clutch is also different to the MK V, it has just 1 plate that looks just like a car type plate, with spring dampened drive and a 22 mm female spline that takes the gearbox input shaft, the clutch plate is followed by the driven plate onto which the diaphragm spring pushes the drive plate and clutch plate.

To centralize the clutch plate I need to think a bit more about what needs to be made but it seems the tool needs to be bolted to the gearbox studs and have a shaft that has the same positioning as the gearbox input shaft, it sounds too bloody complicated to me though and looks nothing like the tool in the manual, but then I can't see how the factory tool does the job anyway, I need to see it being used, maybe I'll have to go and pester Tommy Newell, the man who runs the best Guzzi dealership in town, ( that's me greasing up to Tom coz I'm sure he's on this site somewhere).

Sounds like put it together like a BMW. Just have the bolts loose on the clutch assembly, stick the gear box on to line things up, the remove the the gear box and tighten up the clutch assembly.

 

[Fredly]

Yep John, that would work.

 

[Fredly]

Well, as I had seen from this site that my 2009 8V was still not in the clear regarding the follower and cam issue, I disassembled the top end of the engine out of curiosity as I had come to a dead end in finding the cause of my noise, I found 1 follower with all the black coating gone and the foot visibly out of shape and the corresponding cam lobe showing very early stages of metal to metal scuffing, out of the other 3 followers, 2 had their black coating worn off the center (about 5mm in diameter) and the last one still ok, the other 3 cam lobes still in perfect condition, proving that the follower is the weak link causing the problem, but not nessasarily the thing to concentrate on if one was to come up with a solution to the problem.

I still didn't believe I'd found the cause of my noise as the parts are nowhere near to where I believed it was coming from and they are so small I didn't think they'd make such a loud noise.

So I went to see Tommy Newell for his advice, he immediately said that tha follower was responsible for the noise as he'd seen it many times before, I was certainly surprised but also relieved that we'd come up with the cause of the noise and I could put the engine back together (sans followers and cams) and fit it back into the bike.

Unfortunately I now have to join a long que waiting for replacement parts that we are sure will not solve the problem in the long run, even though Tom (Don Newell Motorcycles) is a Guzzi dealer and the highest authority on Moto Guzzi that I know of, he hasn't been informed by the factory of what is going on with the 8V as far as a fix is concerned, he has to chase it up for himself, which to my mind makes Paggio look like a 2 bob scooter maker who don't understand the damage they are doing to a marque that has such a dedicated following.

 

[Fredly]

Just to finish off this post, all is good, the Griso is back on the road and I'm happy, see " 1200 8V follower and cam issues" for a full version of what happened. :cheer: