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Full Matris on a Griso (first of several installments)

Spaceclam

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
472
Location
Chatsworth, CA
Howdy folks,
This is the first installment of my coming full review of full matris suspension on a griso 1200 (not that it matters which one)
The process is not complete yet but i feel that what I have so far is still helpful, so out it goes. Please check back on this for updates.

Purpose of the upgrade:
Bad roads and freeways. My g12 is a commuter, and as such I deal with some pretty awful freeways on a regular basis (such as the 405) which have a washboard texture and beat the shit out of cars and motorcycles alike. Additionally, many of the roads around my area are in a state of severe disrepair, but receive little attention. Even when "taken care of", some guy just shovels a bit of asphault into the pot hole (more like a large gravel pit) and hits it with a shovel, leaving a bump rather than a hole, which is only marginally better.

Canyon performance was NOT my goal in this. 99% of suspension info and support seems to be geared toward the racetrack, where we ride on tracks as smooth as glass at very high speeds. I had no problems scraping my kickstand and riding all the way to the sidewalls of my tires using the stock supplied suspension.

The stock suspension itself isn't necessarily bad components, but the parts seem mismatched and unbalanced. I chose the matris R rear, with the full fork upgrade in the front.

Brief conclusion (for those of you who don't care for details)

Matris delivers an excellent product, once properly set-up. The build quality is great, the controls are well thought out and the adjustments are very meaningful. The hydraulic preload in the rear is a huge help when adding a passenger, and the cross-talk between the low speed and high speed compression adjustments is VERY low. Your bike will become much more smooth and responsive all around. If you spend a lot of time on your bike (or ride it really hard) than it is money well spent.

However, that said, dealing with matris is a lot like dealing with moto guzzi. They make great stuff, but they make stupid mistakes and that can become your problem, which they will address whenever they feel like doing so. Take great care to ensure everything is correct before attempting installation, and if it isn't, be prepared to wait a long time. (4 months and counting for me)


The ORIGINAL fronts: There is nowhere near enough damping for the supplied spring, and cranking down the compression simply results in the loss of progressive damping, as you basically just block off the exhaust orifice. The rebound adjustment had a similar issue, but wasn't as bad. Basically, blocking off the exhaust ports to increase damping begins to simulate a damping rod by limiting the amount of fluid allowed to pass through the shims. A heavier weight fork oil could help solve this problem by increasing viscous friction in both the shims AND the orifices at the same time, rather than just exhaust, but it still wouldn't be excellent. This lack of damping combined with "wooden" response resulted in poor performance on bad freeways at speed, and high-amplitude bumps (IE crossing a truck-rutted major street).

The ORIGINAL rear: I weigh about 180lb with gear, and didn't really have a problem with the stock supplied spring. It was light, sure, but it wasn't an issue. I also have a lithium battery which sheds 10 lbs, and is helpful. But the wooden response was still a problem. The rebound control was useless, probably because the shock was valved too heavily for the spring supplied with it.

The MATRIS rear:
I replaced this one first. I purchased this one from Todd as he already had it laying around. It was built for him, not me, but designed for a 185-205 lb rider weight with gear. This was probably my mistake because it was sprung primarily for aggressive canyon riding on the relatively good roads around his place, and he weighs a little more than I do. I was on the bottom end of the suggested weight range (185lb), although still within it, so I figured it would still be good.

The shock itself is superb. Very well damped for the supplied spring, control range is excellent with meaningful adjustments. the high speed compression available on the R version is a godsend for someone who has to deal with bad roads and canyons often on the same day. The hydraulic preload works very well too.

IT took about 1000 miles to break in. It felt wooden, harsh, and awful when it was new. It feels better now. However, the spring is WAY too stiff to use as a commuter, actually reducing the ride comfort significantly from stock. But the canyon performance is outstanding and I have some pretty spectacular snake photos to prove it. Currently, to reduce harshness, I have the high speed damping backed way out, and the low speed is out 2 clicks. But now it's a little bouncy. A weaker spring will resolve this issue and allow me to put some high speed damping back in and I am confident I will like it much more. Getting them to even send correct spring has taken about a month and now I have to wait for it to arrive. I have received word that it is finally happening (although matris is charging $100), but in the meantime I looked into other spring companies, and so far, race-tech seems pretty responsive. In hindsight, if you don't like the supplied spring, I'd skip the hassle of dealing with matris and just talk to race-tech. MAKE SURE that when you order the shock that you are clear about your intended use so that it is sprung accordingly. This was my fault, take my advice and avoid this issue all together.

The MATRIS fronts:
The fronts are very nice indeed. Everything feels much smoother.
Initially, we were going to install the front and rear at the same time. However, matris had supplied the wrong fork caps, which didn't fit. They claimed the fork caps were different between the 2v and the 8v models (which sounds like an excuse to me, but i don't know for sure). We found this out only after putting everything else together and it was a real bummer. It took about 5 weeks to get the proper parts. WHEN YOU GET THE FRONTS, measure the thread size of the fork cap before doing anything. I forget what the correct number is, but Todd has my original fronts so maybe he will chime in.

Once the new parts arrived, they supplied 5w fork oil vs the 7.5w supplied with the other kit. Assuming that this was intentional, we assembled the forks, which was a non-issue this time.

Matris's assembly instructions were really annoying, in that it required you to fill to a certain level, rather than give you a volume. This level included everything but the spring and spring spacer. But the construction of the shock makes it impossible to measure the oil level and then install the spring, so we had to assemble it, measure the oil level, then pour it out and measure the volume, re-assemble then pour said volume back in. For future reference, the correct level is 300ml.

At first, the bike was very under damped and totally out of balance. The supplied 5w fork oil is wrong for sure. If I remember correctly, it's supposed to be 14-18 clicks of rebound and 10-14 clicks of compression. Under these conditions, it felt fine on the street but beat the crap out of me on the 405, and felt really loose going over train tracks n stuff. After doing bad-freeway runs for several hours, my current settings are 10 clicks of rebound and 7 clicks of compression which is significantly off from their recommended settings. AND THEY FEEL EXCELLENT. The adjustments are still good at those numbers. While it isn't quite as smooth on the street as before with the extra damping, it's still better than stock, and the freeway is a huge improvement. Next time I change my tire, Ill put in the proper 7.5w. WHEN YOU GET THE FRONTS make sure you use 7.5w. Canyon performance is very good and the spring rate is perfect as supplied.

Rear Update

So after literally 5 months trying to get matris to do something, they sent a spring which was 20mm longer than the supplied spring, with no meaningful markings and requested a preload value that would have dropped my ride height by over an inch had I followed their instructions. Matris never responded to our requests to get some meaningful data about the spring, after multiple attempts.While I appreciate Todd's hard work on my behalf, Matris was being unreasonable, and re-springing this shock is difficult due to it's construction. I wasn't about to put a mystery spring on, so I bought an ohlins spring, and it's phenominal. I have left the damping where it was (except for the rebound damping of course, which I backed off 3 clicks). At these settings, it is plenty capable, and much more responsive than stock, but also more comfortable. I can still grind hard parts in the turns confidently, but I do prefer to give it a couple clicks more compression when I'm out on a ride.

The supplied spring had a rate of 700 lb/in, and 20mm of preload on a 130mm spring. This spring is a non-standard size. The ohlins spring however is 150mm, with a rate of 628lb/in, preloadeded 23mm and the ride height is the same as before. (The stock spring is 485 or 535 lb/in.

So I have to say I really love the shock now. Now that the suspension is finally sorted, ('bout time) It has dramatically improved the ride quality. I can really rip the bike around hard, but railroad crossings and stuff are smooth as silk.

In conclusion, If you are on the bottom of a reccomended weight range for the rear shock, go with the lower range. You won't regret it.

Cheers everyone,
-Clam
 
Race tech CANNOT supply a correct spring to re-spring the factory or Matris shock!!! only Ohlins 1091 or 1093 (the 1091 requires a spacer) work correctly. any spring over 750lbs( will hit either the frame or swing arm) if they are not of these two series from ohlins... Racetech will send you a hypercoil which will be too big on the od and will strike the frame and or swingarm. This is an issue with a penske shock as well however it is solved easily by using either of these two series ohlins springs, even with the penske shock.

a Factory built Penske shock will not fit these bikes with a (penske supplied hypercoil) spring over 750 lbs. which is about right for a 200lb rider in fact it is a hair light.

ohlins holds the id of their 1091 and 1093 springs to the same number for all rates up to their limit of 1200lbs. Matris does as well. (so does sachs if you can find one)... but hypercoil and eibach etc allow the id to grow as the rate gets higher on their nominal 2.25"id rear springs.

the od limit for a spring on a CARC Moto Guzzi is 82.5-83mm 84 mmod will hit something hard on about 95% of the bikes..
 
I have heard that before about racetech, but they claim having spoke to the techs, that they can supply a correct spring. Im not sure which is the case, but at least they answer their phones. I don't want a 750 lb spring, as that (as far as I can tell) is what is on there currently. A 650 would be a nice improvement over stock, while still being compliant enough for street use, I think.

As for the ohlins springs, I could not for the life of me find a place to buy one, and I contacted 4 different ohlins dealers regarding ordering one, none of which got back to me even after persistent prodding, multiple messages, and even in some cases, repeated visits.

In any case, just make sure you are clear about your intended use when you order it. Don't be shy and tell them you want it sprung for the canyons because you ride them sometimes, because even a weaker spring will be stiffer than stock.
 
Spaceclam said:
I have heard that before about racetech, but they claim having spoke to the techs, that they can supply a correct spring. Im not sure which is the case, but at least they answer their phones. I don't want a 750 lb spring, as that (as far as I can tell) is what is on there currently. A 650 would be a nice improvement over stock, while still being compliant enough for street use, I think.

As for the ohlins springs, I could not for the life of me find a place to buy one, and I contacted 4 different ohlins dealers regarding ordering one, none of which got back to me even after persistent prodding, multiple messages, and even in some cases, repeated visits.

In any case, just make sure you are clear about your intended use when you order it. Don't be shy and tell them you want it sprung for the canyons because you ride them sometimes, because even a weaker spring will be stiffer than stock.

uh call Dan Kyle any ohlins in 48 hrs. kyleusa.com

Grisos have come with 485 and 535 lb springs and have a very progressive ratio rear end link going to 600 lb is not doing much at all, Really little My first mod was to install a stelvio spring which was 610 and it made zero diff in the ability to set the sag over stock with a 175 lb rider.

ps be careful with race tech sometimes they think they are smarter than they are. and assume they know it all when they have never seen some rare bikes with special fit problems.
 
My sag was spot on with the stock suspension, but it felt a little too soft. Currently, it is still within the "correct" range as it is (albeit on the bottom end) and it is way too hard.

Sag is just a tuning tool. At the end of the day, the only important measuring tool is my bum.
 
Spaceclam said:
My sag was spot on with the stock suspension, but it felt a little too soft. Currently, it is still within the "correct" range as it is (albeit on the bottom end) and it is way too hard.

Sag is just a tuning tool. At the end of the day, the only important measuring tool is my bum.

the real question is how much preload are you riunning in mm, just curious it is possible a lot of times to get the sag ok with a ton of preload cranked into a spring but then you have to compensate with a lot of damping to keep from blowing through the stroke and that makes the ride harsh.... it is actually better to over spring a little and slightly under damp if you are going for comfort
 
When pushing down on the back of the bike, it does not comply nearly enough, although there is still plenty of stroke. This is a straight wound spring that does not fully extend under the bike's own weight, meaning that sag is mostly a ride-height adjustment only. You are basically changing the location of the spring perch. The spring rate itself remains constant. Altering the ride height will change mechanical advantage on the spring a little bit due to the progressive nature of the suspension geometry, but we are only talking 1/4" or less, so that isn't much of an adjustment. Plus, if you like your ride height?

When the compression controls are cranked in to where they are supposed to be, the shock feels excellent on good roads but is very harsh due to it's high spring rate. When the controls are backed out a bit for comfort, the shock becomes bouncy very fast but remains somewhat harsh, again because of the spring. Since the spring rate is high, the natural resonant frequency of the spring is also very high. This means, when it becomes bouncy, it's quite violent since the bouncing frequency is very fast. The resonant frequency of a 750lb spring is 16% faster than stock assuming 535lb. versus a 485, it's 17% faster

Lowering the spring rate will

a) lower the resonant frequency, making whatever bouncing there is (hopefully none) slower and less violent
b) reduce the amount of damping necessary to prevent bounciness in the first place
c) allow me to increase my high-speed compression back to where it's supposed to be
d) increase suspension compliance to normal levels

Also, while less damping around town is more comfy, the key on washboard freeways at speed (purely through hours of experimentation) actually seems to be more damping. I'd have never guessed it, but the results on both sets of shocks are very clear.

My father has a z1000 which handles the freeways very well, and I have also played around with this. the shocks are cheap, a little undersprung (but not too bad) and a little overdamped (but again, not too bad.) Which further corroborates this theory.
 
Hi Guys, I have a 2007 Bellagio with Matris R on the rear also.
Note: Bellagio uses same CARC & rocker parts as Breva/Norge/Griso. The Matris had been made for a forum member with a Griso.

I have an Eibach 105N/mm spring (81mm OD & painted orange) on mine with no fitting or clearance problems.
Our QLD roads should be called motocross tracks and I'm still trying to get the compliance I had on my Ducati Hypermotard 1100S.

I did get from Alberto at Matris a new 3.0mm shock shaft jet to increase oil flow to get some decent range on the Hi-speed comp. The last of several requests I marked "URGENT", and got an instant reply with the jet for free.

Currently I need the hydraulic pre-load 'oil seals', no reply after 8 weeks.

My current suspender guru loves this shock, it is definitely high end road race equipment, but my needs are for very tight bumpy bends so I need it to work at 30-50mph, not 150mph on a billiard table smooth race track.
 
To be very clear, the shock was not built for Andrew, it was one I had in the shelf for personal reasons. We are resolving mostly the spring as Andrew is much lighter then I.
All of Matris offerings are generally plug-n-play, outside of a few clicks of adjusters.
My Stelvio Matris R is the best shock I've ever ridden on.

Matris offers a preload option for the Norge. I mentioned it to you direct email.
 
My mistake. I proofread my post maybe 10 times and still missed that.

The original post has been edited to make it explicitly clear.

-Andrew
 
I have just acquired a 2014 Diavolo Nero and have had the standard suspension set up profesionally, which ha sbeen a good improvement and at leats my kidneys feel like they will survive a few more miles, although for my 100kgs it still feels a tad hard and over damped. I think I am at about 8mm static sag at the rear now and 41mm rider sag. I have looked into replacing with a Matris K series (dont think I need an R as my track days are long behind me and any foray onto the circuit will be at spirited rather than race speeds). Looking at various threads/posts the Matris replacement is recommended to be set at 330mm overall length, which I udnerstand gives a good increase in ride height and loads up the friont for better turn in. The K series as supplied is set for the Griso at 320mm and has an adjusatble range of 319mm to 328mm accordng to the Matris distibutor in the UK. Does anyone have any more information? Is there an other version which gives 330mm overall length? I will very rarely ride two up so dont see the need for the hydraulic pre-load adjuster and am looking at the standard K series. All help/advice/suggetsions welcomed! Its an expensive bit of kit and I dont wnat to get it wrong! Many thanks.
 
I can answer your questions and get it set up properly, if you order it from me on my online Store above. Otherwise, contact your UK distributor.
 
I can answer your questions and get it set up properly, if you order it from me on my online Store above. Otherwise, contact your UK distributor.
Well I ordered a Matris 46K from the UK distributor BikeTorque. Was told to just fit it and it is set up for my weight and riding ( I told them I rarely use Motorways) and plug and play on arrival. Boy its haaaard. Came with 135Nmm spring which converts to 770 lbs/in! I am 103kgs ready to ride and another UK Griso rider has also fitted the Matris 46K which arrived with the exact same spring and he is 78kgs! Set at max length 328mm improves ride height and quickens up steering but until I can get it set up with the optimum spring for my weight I wont be riding it remotely quickly on UK roads as I would like to preserve my kidneys! £703 in and I think I prefer the original shock at this stage!
Will look for a 110Nmm spring (630 lb/in) and may just go with an Ohlins at this stage as at least they are available easily rather than lengthy wait for Matris to do anything.
 
Who you choose to do business with, means something.

Price, quality workmanship, customer service - Pick any two.

BikeTorque are the UK Importers and Distributors for Matris. I have contacted them today and they appear to be supportive and say that their Matris specialist will come back to me to resolve the issue of the 135 Nmm spring. My guess is that they will replace it with a more appropriate rate which leaves me to remove the shock, change the spring and refit - a bit tedious but I guess I will get to know the bike that much better! I will enquire whether BikeTorque gave Matris the information on my weight and how I end up with a 135 Nmm spring as does another UK rider who gave his weight of 78kgs! Not sure if its information not passed on or Matris just building to standard spec. Either way its far too haaaard!
 
Well it seems Matris are sticking to their assertion that the 135Nmm (770lbs/in or 13.76kg) spring is correct and I should just play with the preload and damping settings. I measured sag on teh Matris as delivered as 8mm static and 19mm rider. Matris say they advise sag to be set at 40mm - 45mm.
Could those of you with a Matris or any other aftermarket shock post what Spring rate you have and your weight and whether you are pleased with it?!
Something like:

BBB888 - 103kg - Matris 46K - 135Nmm - too hard

etc etc.

We might get a good picture that will help anyone choose the best spring rate when buying an aftermarket shock! I have advice from others suggesting either 110Nmm (11.2kg/627 lb/in) or 115Nmm (11.7kg/655lb/in) spring would be best.
 
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