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2007 Norge Follow-up: Is Dash or ECU the Culprit

2veloce

Tuned and Synch'ed
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
44
Location
GSO
It's been a couple of months since my last post so I wanted to share some information and update the status of the work on a 2007 Norge. For those who are not aware of the original post/thread, here's a brief summary:
-A friend offer to sell me his very low mileage, pristine condition 2007 Norge 1200 at a low price BUT:
-Dash was completely dead...no speedo, no tach, no idiot lights... nothing.
-No turn signals or head lights
-ABS pump ran continuously even with ignition key in "OFF" position. Pump only stops by disconnecting battery cable.
-It was suggested by a dealer that these issues were ECU related and would likely cost a couple of thousand dollars to fix.

Here's what I did:
- purchased a working 'salvage' Norge dash from Ebay for $40.00

Here's what I found:
-With the salvage dash was able to display the diagnostics screen and I read an error 56 code...wheel sensor.
-The salvage dish displays all appropriate data and idiot lights. Also now controls head lights and turn signals. Deduction: the original dash must be faulty and ECU is most likely OK.
-Found pinched wheel sensor cable where a zip tie was used to secure sensor cable to front brake caliper
-Also found another place where the front wheel sensor cable was pinched. The sensor cable runs along the bike's right side frame (under gas tank on right side). The person installing the cable ran the sensor cable under the main harness . The weight and tension of the main harness crushed the speed sensor cable.
-Loosened zip tie at front caliper and re-routed wheel sensor cable along the frame. Insulation evidently closed back in both locations when the stress was removed. Voltage testing and now working speedo confirms these issues were resolved.


Here's course of action I'm currently following:
-Removed ABS module (ECU only...not the pump) and sent it to Module Master in Moscow, Idaho for repair. Note: A new OEM ABS module costs in excess of $1200 and that is parts only. Will give an update on this site when unit is reinstalled. I believe the cost of repair will be around $100.00.
-Removed original dash and sent it to CARMO Electronics in the USA. They in turn will send the dash to the Netherlands for repair. UPDATE: I received a call from CARMO confirming receipt of the dash in their California office and advising the repair cost will be $461.00. I inquired how they could give a repair cost as they only just received the dash. I was told they based the repair cost on my description of the problems. I requested they reconfirm the repair cost once they actually open the dash and perform an inspection/diagnosis. I wonder what price I would have been given if I only
stated 'It doesn't work'. Will update everyone on status of dash after its returned and installed.

Stay tuned.
 
The speed sensor is also the ABS wheel sensor. Did you check if the ABS fault was still there once you had repaired the speed sensor fault? Just that the same fault would certainly have caused the ABS to act strangely.
 
The fact that the ABS unit ran as long as power was applied to the unit really indicated a bad ABS unit. I even disconnected the front wheel sensor and the pump still ran all the time. I now have a working speedo which says the front wheel sensor is functioning and again points to a faulty ABS module

As mentioned, I sent the ABS module to Module Master in Moscow, Idaho for diagnosis & repair. Last evening, I received an email from Tyler at Module Master and he confirmed the pump driver was fried in the ABS module. He's already repaired it (a one day service :D) and the unit is on its way back. Hope to install it this weekend and will update status of the unit then.
 
As reported back in late January, I purchased a working second hand dash for my '07 Norge. Unlike my completely dead original dash, this second hand dash was fully functional and allowed me to use the diagnostics mode. After replacing the original dash with the second hand dash, the only faults were the ABS light and error 56 (front wheel sensor) in the ECU. I was already pretty sure the ABS module was bad so I was not concerned that the ABS light was on.

I remembered a post by a fellow GuzziTech member that he found the cable to the front sensor was pinched near the brake caliper so I thought I would investigate and see if I might have the same issue. Sure enough, I loosened the cable ties, re-routed the cable near the frame/harness at the right side of the tank (wiring harness was laying on top of the sensor cable) and 'voila' the speedometer started working. Error 56 solved.

It was a long cold winter here in North Carolina and I really have not had the time or motivation to go out to a cold garage and wrench on the bike. Add in several very long business trips and the 'months' seem to have flown by since my January post. However, this past weekend, spring seemingly arrived and I also found time (and inspiration) to work on the bike. With a repaired ABS module (repaired by Module Master) and a repaired dash (repaired by CARMO Netherlands) in hand, I was eager to get my hands dirty. While I'd like to report the '07 Norge is now in top OEM condition, sadly, there are still unresolved issues.

So, I'm back to the tech forum and humbly ask for all 'tech heads' to offer up any suggestions or advice. Here is a brief review of the sequence of events and current situation:

-The last time I last rode was in late January. At that time, the bike was fitted with the second hand dash and all functions and LED info displayed correctly. I removed the battery and connected it to a Battery Tender. The ABS module was removed and sent to Module Master for repair. Dash was removed and sent to CARMO for repair. Both the ABS module and repaired dash (instrument cluster) were received a few weeks later.
-Last weekend, the repaired ABS module and repaired dash were installed.
-The fully charged battery was installed.

Now here is where it gets interesting:

After installing and connecting the battery, I turned the ignition key and the dash came alive. Wow, was I a happy camper....for about 10 seconds. What should appear but the dreaded 'Un-plugged ECU' symbol. I could not believe what I was seeing. Upon closer examination of the idiot lights, I noticed the 'side stand' indicator was not illuminated even though the stand was down. Fortunately, the other dash dependent functions such as hi/low beam head lights, turn signals, fuel and hazard worked correctly.

I then started the bike and, much to my dismay, the tachometer did not work. BUMMER! I have a small motor with a soft wheel which I can place against the bike's front wheel to make it spin. Bummer #2, the speedometer also did not work and the ABS light remained illuminated. I was livid.

I go the diagnostics screen on the dash. I see active fault 16 in the ECU. "Oh", I say, error 16 would be active because I removed the air box and disconnected the sensor. I exit the diagnostics screen, plug the air box cover it and re-enter the diagnostics. Error 16 gone. Good.

I toggle to the Dashboard diagnostics screen and I see Error 05 came up. "Oh yes", I forgot to connect the fuel pump. I clean the error, exit diagnostics, connect fuel pump and then re-enter dashboard diagnostics. Nothing...no errors. This is good.

OK, let's double check this situation. I re-installed the $40.00 second hand dash. Just like the 'original' dash, it lights right up. But, after about 10 seconds, the SERVICE triangle appears. This is first time I have ever seen this when the second hand dash was installed.

Scrolling down, I see ECU error 56. Front wheel sensor. "Crap", I thought that was solved when I loosed the cable ties on the front caliper. So, maybe I do have a bad sensor. No problem, I can replace the sensor later Scrolling further I see no additional errors. I toggle to the dashboard errors menu and see error 01. This error was made known to me at the time when I purchased the used dash so I'm not concerned with this. Scrolling further, no other dash errors.

Again, I place my handy-dandy wheel spinner device against the front wheel. Much to my amazement, the speedometer works even though the ECU said error 56. What's going on?

The next business day, I emailed CARMO and informed them the repaired dash did not work. Specifically, the tach, speedo and side stand switch were faulty. A few days later I received an email from CARMO advising me to check the regulator/rectifier, battery and ground as this could cause a high voltage spike. This was the same suggestion included in the report when I first received the repaired dash. According to CARMO, the dash received over 18V and this caused the damage. Of course, I had already checked the output of the alternator (14.0 -14.2 v), checked/cleaned/tighten the ground and installed a new battery so I was pretty sure none of these things re-damaged the recently repaired dash. Also, the fact that the second hand dash speedo, tack and side stand switch light functioned correctly indicated it was a repair issue.

However, one thing I could not verify was the condition of diode and capacitor which is supposed to suppress voltage spikes from getting to the ECU and dash. According to Carl Allison's schematic for the '07 Norge, these items are listed as items 60 and 61. I have looked for these two parts but for the life of me I cannot find them. I even posted a request for assistance (under a separate forum topic) but no one could provide any REAL definitive explanation as where to look for these parts or what the look like. I've got the plastic off the bike, removed the air box and I'll be damned if I can find it. OK, you guys.....where are these parts??? What the heck do they look like? Is there a special connector or unique color wire?? Somebody please take a photo of these parts and post them.

So, I now look back and try to understand what is the root cause of this craziness. One dash gives me the "ECU Un-Plugged" symbol and the other (the second- hand and previously trouble free instrument cluster) now displays the "SERVICE" triangle. The ONLY thing that is common to both of these errors is that both dashes were used the repaired ABS module. "Bingo" I thought. I un-lock the connector to the ABS module and remove the cable. With the original dash installed, I reconnect the battery, turn the ignition and in about 10 seconds the "ECU Un-Plugged" symbol appears, Tach, speedo and side stand switch still do not work. There are no new ECU or Dashboard errors.

It's double check time. I disconnect the battery and re-install the second hand dash. With the ABS cable still disconnected, I turn on the switch. Dash lights up and in about 10 seconds the 'SERVICE" triangle appears. There are no new ECU or Dashboard errors with the second hand dash either.

Guys, I'm at my wits end and need some 'pro' help from anyone in our world-wide forum. Noting that I did not see any un-explained ECU errors, I am doubtful if the ECU is bad. The bike starts and runs great. But, could it be a bad ECU too??

Comments, questions??

Please help:)
 
Have you inspected the ECU connectors? One pin could be the issue. They employ a latching bar type connection. Also applying a contact cleaner and lubricant wouldn't hurt. I find the TV tuner and contact cleaner available at Radio Shack does OK for this. Also make sure the external ground to the ECU is clean and tight.
 
Also check your contact on the oil pressure switch (in the v of the engine - a bugger to get to) wire - these have been known to cause red triangle errors. You don't have a FatDuc or something similar fitted to the Lambda sensor do you? This may also throw up the triangle...
 
Thanks to John Zibell and Tony Cruisin' Guzzista for being ‘first responders’.

To John Zibell, I will check ECU connectors. However, the original dash displayed SERVICE not ECU unplugged. And the second hand dash did not display SERVICE or the ECU Unplugged when first installed. Only after the ABS module was installed did I receive those error displays.

Also, I did loosen the external ground screw and re-tightened it several times as to remove any gunk from making a good ground. Also checked ground with VOM and confirm it’s good. Will remove ECU plugs and inspect ECU for bent pins. Will also use contact cleaner and reconnect. I did notice that the ECU mounting screws were pretty loose but since they are in rubber grommets this has no impact on ground. Maybe being loose bounced the unit around too much and caused a failure??? if so, why don't I see an ECU error in the diagnostics?? This is why I'm so confused, that is to say, LED display says error but no errors are noted in the ECU.

To Tony Cruisin' Guzzista: Thanks for heads up on the oil pressure switch. Since air box is off inspection of this switch should not be much of a problem. BTW, how do you check the switch such as continuity using a VOM meter; are contacts NO or NC?
 
Don't just loosen and re-tighen. Take it off, remove any possible oxide with a wire brush or abrasive paper. Then re-connect that ground to the ECU.
 
The ECU symbol also comes up when you have connected a diagnostic tool to the ECU. The conenctor for this is under the seat next to the fuse box - it is a 3 pin plug with only 2 pins/wires and should have a black blanking plug on it - if something else, that may be the problem. You may have to dig around to find it - the wire colours are yellow/black and blue.

Let us know how you go...
 
Do as John says.

I was once caught in the middle of nowhere with a bike (B11) that wouldn't start. All the connections were clean and tight. I then pulled them apart one at the time and scrapped them with a picket knife ('tis all I had). When reconnected, the 'ol girl fired up like new.

There was no gunk, crud or anything else. Now, scrapping the surfaces is the first thing I try if I ever get caught.

cheers

Robert
 
I've pulled every connector apart and sprayed them with high quality contact clearer and brushed both male and female pieces. I've removed the ground from the ECU unit (what a PITA), used Scotchbrite around the ground screw hole on the ECU, brushed ECU ground wire connector, cleaned and re-cleaned ground at starter and battery. I don't believe the issue is a ground problem now as the SERVICE triangle still being displayed.

Now here's another question: I have a functional speedometer but the ECU shows error 56. No other ECU or DB errors. Could the error 56 initiate the SERVICE triangle?
 
2veloce said:
Now here's another question: I have a functional speedometer but the ECU shows error 56. No other ECU or DB errors. Could the error 56 initiate the SERVICE triangle?

Possibly. If it is in the Active column, then yes, if the Memory column, then no. I'm thinking the rebuilt dash has issues. Could be time to send it back.
 
I've decided If there is even a remote chance that the front wheel sensor will cause the SERVICE triangle then I'll order one. I've called around and NO dealer I've contacted has one in stock. Everyone said they can order one but it will take about10 days before it's shipped to me...so about two weeks total time. Also learned the ABS sensor for the '07 Norge is the same one (part no. AP8127469) used on some Aprillia's so may try to contact some of their dealers as well.

And, John, dash is on the way back to CARMO for re-evaluation. Will give an update when it returns. In the meantime, my $40.00 second hand dash is working fine .
 
Just placed an order for a front wheel sensor for the Norge. It's a 'special' order part and apparently NO dealer in the US (either Guzzi or Aprillia) has one in stock. Maybe the 'Guzzi exclusivity' I've heard about is self inflicted rather than garnered by consumer demand.
 
2veloce said:
Just placed an order for a front wheel sensor for the Norge. It's a 'special' order part and apparently NO dealer in the US (either Guzzi or Aprillia) has one in stock. Maybe the 'Guzzi exclusivity' I've heard about is self inflicted rather than garnered by consumer demand.

ebay? I just did a quick search and there seemed to be a few.
 
my 05 breva always shows red triangle or service - they alternate , i ignore it , no problem. i found out how to "clear " the errors in the dash , ( are you doing that between changes ? ) and did that , but they came back , next time I started it !
The dash records errors in signalling , not necessarily errors in function.
my bike runs fine despite the "smart dash" italian electrics ? like others suggest most likely just a poor earth or pin connection ? Guzzi's at their best ! dave
 
:dry:
Bisbonian said:
2veloce said:
Just placed an order for a front wheel sensor for the Norge. It's a 'special' order part and apparently NO dealer in the US (either Guzzi or Aprillia) has one in stock. Maybe the 'Guzzi exclusivity' I've heard about is self inflicted rather than garnered by consumer demand.

ebay? I just did a quick search and there seemed to be a few.


Did a search and saw a used one for ~$24 compared to a new one for 35.00. My bike only has 5000 miles and the sensor looks brand new. So looks apparently don't mean anything. For the $11.00 cost difference I think I'll just wait.
 
aussiedave said:
my 05 breva always shows red triangle or service - they alternate , i ignore it , no problem. i found out how to "clear " the errors in the dash , ( are you doing that between changes ? ) and did that , but they came back , next time I started it !
The dash records errors in signalling , not necessarily errors in function.
my bike runs fine despite the "smart dash" italian electrics ? like others suggest most likely just a poor earth or pin connection ? Guzzi's at their best ! dave

I hear ya Dave.. but you and I both know it ain't supposed to be this way. it riles the piss out of me that a bike that costs much as a Guzzi yet one has to put up with BS reminiscent of a POS from China or India.
 
2veloce said:
aussiedave said:
my 05 breva always shows red triangle or service - they alternate , i ignore it , no problem. i found out how to "clear " the errors in the dash , ( are you doing that between changes ? ) and did that , but they came back , next time I started it !
The dash records errors in signalling , not necessarily errors in function.
my bike runs fine despite the "smart dash" italian electrics ? like others suggest most likely just a poor earth or pin connection ? Guzzi's at their best ! dave

I hear ya Dave.. but you and I both know it ain't supposed to be this way. it riles the piss out of me that a bike that costs much as a Guzzi yet one has to put up with BS reminiscent of a POS from China or India.

I remembered this bike had issues from the git go. On your original thread I think I advised you to pass on it. Even though you bought it cheap, it is a known problem child. You are putting on reconditioned units instead of new. This is what happens when attempting to do things on the cheap. You will have to live with the frustrations until it is all sorted, which will take time and money. By the time it is sorted, you may end up with more in it than if you had purchased a bike without issues in the first place.
 
john zibell said:
2veloce said:
aussiedave said:
my 05 breva always shows red triangle or service - they alternate , i ignore it , no problem. i found out how to "clear " the errors in the dash , ( are you doing that between changes ? ) and did that , but they came back , next time I started it !
The dash records errors in signalling , not necessarily errors in function.
my bike runs fine despite the "smart dash" italian electrics ? like others suggest most likely just a poor earth or pin connection ? Guzzi's at their best ! dave

I hear ya Dave.. but you and I both know it ain't supposed to be this way. it riles the piss out of me that a bike that costs much as a Guzzi yet one has to put up with BS reminiscent of a POS from China or India.

I remembered this bike had issues from the git go. On your original thread I think I advised you to pass on it. Even though you bought it cheap, it is a known problem child. You are putting on reconditioned units instead of new. This is what happens when attempting to do things on the cheap. You will have to live with the frustrations until it is all sorted, which will take time and money. By the time it is sorted, you may end up with more in it than if you had purchased a bike without issues in the first place.

John, with all due respect to the effort you put into this forum, I take great exception that spending $461.00 is doing anything on the cheap. And, as for your calculus of what is and what is not 'attempting to do thing on the cheap', my total out of pocket expense is still less than $600.00 to repair a '07 Norge with 5890 miles on it. Additionally, maybe you should contact Module Master, who is a nationally known repair center (also services all makes of automotive instrument panels and BMW GS ABS units) and inform them that anyone using their services is performing work on the cheap. I can give you their telephone number. Or, maybe, just maybe I misunderstood the intent of your comments. If so, I do humbly apologize, But, if it is your recommendation that one should make repairs using only by OEM goods and services (to thereby avoid the perception of doing something on the cheap) then everyone on this forum should be suspect of your advice.

The 'problem child', as you refer to my '07 Norge with 5890 miles, speaks volumes to my reply to Dave (above) when I wrote, "I hear ya Dave.. but you and I both know it ain't supposed to be this way".
 
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