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07 Norge 1200 Engine Power Loss at Speed

Hi Tom and welcome to Guzzi ownership.
You are in good company and this is the one and only forum you will need for good advice and friendly encouragement.
Im in Australia so cant help with local dealer advice - unless you come for a trip over here !
but Guzzi folk use word of mouth more than anything. You will discover a new world of friends come with being a Guzzi owner.
Many are proficient at maintaining these bike thru learnt experience.
Do the steps suggested , like a fine red wine - your bike and your relationship with it will improve with age.......
Clean fuel system, good earths and connectors , that fixes most Guzzi quirks.....so you can enjoy riding :)
Dave r


Appreciate the welcome Dave! The amount of helpful information I've already received is really encouraging. I'm still searching for a local shop to do things I can't such as mounting new tires and other more specialized tasks, but I may have found one in the area and will be sure to update when I find out more.
 
What color is Seafoam w/mixed w/fuel? I thought it turned yellow. Maybe PO had too much in fuel or not enough fuel mixed in.
Not a good sign regardless. Don't use bike fuel pump, use a hand pump to empty. Then remove pump plate and pull out everything, flush tank, lines and all. Injectors and line comes off w/screw on intake manifold hold bracket.


Oh boy did I make a silly mistake. After siphoning the tank I discovered the milky yellow color was actually not the fuel at all, it appears the entire inside of gas tank on the 07 Norge is this yellow color, that is to say yellow plastic! With a nearly full tank it just appeared as if the gas was yellow due to reflections and the high mid section of the tank. Well, it had to be drained anyway for the next steps :)
 
Time for an update, on the (still new to me) Norge that just shut off on me twice at highway speeds...

It's taken me a while to get a chance to work on the bike since the last post as I've been traveling and just haven't had the time. Last week all ordered parts and tools had finally arrived and it was high time to get to it.

First, some things I learned about this bike:

1) It has had a "Canisterectomy", no canister, both hoses from under the tank were coupled to hoses that just end under the seat (more on this later) and some strange blue tape blocking a hose on the R side of the throttle body?

gz_wtf.jpg


2) It must have had the so-called "startus interuptus" problem as there is an extra fused cable connected to the positive terminal of the battery that, get this, is connected to the wire coming from the molex with one of those twist-on wire connectors. Shield your sensitive eyes, it's ugly in the electrical area! (I've since cleaned it..)
gz_adhoc_cable.jpg


3) The PO put in a new but somewhat under-specced battery before selling it, a Durlast Gold ETX14 (12V 1.2A 12Ah 220CCA).

Things I've done so far:

1) Cleaned up the battery compartment (looked like something exploded). Pulled, tested and cleaned all fuses. I tried pulling the relays to clean them too but those suckers are basically impossible to get off, so in the interest of saving my fingers and not breaking stuff I left them alone.

2) Drained and removed the tank. The famous red fuel line connecter wasn't too bad, just propped the tank up on a small box held the red part with 2 fingers and used my other hand to pull the white ring away from the connector while simultaneously pushing the hose part towards it. It also may have helped that the previous guy inside her applied generous amounts of lube to the connector.

3) Removed the decaying "insulating foam" under the tank. The foam is actually covered with a thin sheet of vinyl material that had almost completely separated from the foam and may have been getting sucked into the air box? The foam also instantly crumbled to the touch and I even found small chunks and foam dust in the air box. So I scraped it all off and trashed it, just sound insulation anyway right?

Before:
gz_tank_bottom.jpg



4) Replaced the fuel filter (it was already an all metal one). This was actually tougher than getting the tank off, specifically pulling the the fuel assembly out of the tank. It would not come out any way I turned it, just seemed too wide in parts. I took a breather and jumped on the forums for a solution and as it turns out someone back in 2011 had the same problem and had the brilliant idea of carefully using a long screwdriver to help the stubborn parts along. Sure enough, with screwdriver guidance it came out easily.

Here is the new filter installed:
gz_fuel_assembly.jpg


Note the red on the gasket. This is some kind of silicone sealer that was beginning to decay. I found whole pieces of it in the tank as well as on the outside of the fuel pump sock. So I cleaned all that up and put a fresh layer of Permatex form-a-gasket #3 on this area as well as on all the screw threads when reinstalling the fuel assembly.


5) Pulled the injectors and sent them to R.C. Fuel Injection for a professional cleaning.
They found:
Injector #1:
Before - CC/Min: 0.0 Pattern: Closed /// After - CC/Min: 309 Pattern: Excellent
Injector #2:
Before - CC/Min 251.0 Pattern: Dripping /// After - CC/Min: 311 Pattern: Excellent

Thanks fellas, looks like I was riding with 1 working injector.


6) Removed failing rubber boots on the injector connectors. The boots had large holes in them and were flaking off on both sides.

Before:
gz_old_boot.jpg


A kind forum member pointed me to a source for replacement boots and I order a few. I carefully cut away the old decayed rubber boots and removed the 2 wires from the housing using one of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CHF74S9

I realized quickly that the top opening in these boots is designed only for bare wires to pass through then to be crimped afterwards, they just don't have the space to shove 2 crimped connectors through. I wasn't about to buy crimping tools and new connector assemblies, so back to the forums for a solution...

Thanks to a helpful post I discovered X-treme (self-vulcanizing) tape, this stuff is amazing and it did the job nicely:
gz_xtreme_boot.jpg


Next steps with Questions:

1) In the process of replacing the air filter I discovered that one of the holes the bottom of the air box is blocked off and not connected to anything (PO or mechanic taped it closed with electrical tape on the bottom nipple side)

I'm referring to #2 in this image:
gz_airbox.jpg

Is blocking off #2 part of the "canisterectomy" or is this a potential problem? Also does #1 have a function? I'm trying to wrap my head around this air box and I can't figure out what #2 might have been connected to. Also, I only have a very minute amount of oil at the bottom of the box towards the throttle bodies.


2) Going back to the fuel tank, both the L and R side nipples under the tank are connected to short lengths of hose which are each joined to longer hoses that end under the seat. This doesn't seem right.

The one on the L side is the drain from the gas cap, it actually had some water in it when I took it off, I'm guessing from the last time I washed the bike. I think this should be draining to the ground, not sitting in a hose under my seat. I'm also not sure what the R side tank nipple is for (breather?), but I blasted them both with compressed air after running a pipe cleaner through each side to make sure they are clear.

Looking at the Euro Norge in the parts diagram, both under tank hoses are connected to a t-connector which has a third hose which I assume drains to the ground, but where? Near the rear brake reservoir? I'd like to replicate that setup.

Still to do:
1) Remove the air box so that I can change both inside spark plugs (the R plug is impossible to get at otherwise).
2) Change both outside spark plugs.
3) Change oil and filter
4) Change Carc and Gearbox oil
5) Bleed clutch, front and rear brakes

If you made it this far, thanks for reading!

I'm obviously a novice at this, but Guzzi's vanishing presence in the United States is turning owners into part time mechanics. Truth be told, I'd much rather be riding!
 
I think No 2 goes to the stepper motor

That is correct. It is the source for the stepper motor. But going back, the line that is taped off with blue tape at the right side of the throttle bodies may be the line to the stepper so now the stepper may be getting unfiltered air.
 
That is correct. It is the source for the stepper motor. But going back, the line that is taped off with blue tape at the right side of the throttle bodies may be the line to the stepper so now the stepper may be getting unfiltered air.

A bypassed stepper would explain why I had to give it a little extra throttle with a totally cold engine to keep it from stalling out.

It seems the PO was already "in the know" about quite a few of the popular mods on this bike. It's a long shot, but if you're a forum member and recognize your handiwork, PM me, I'd love to know more about the history of the bike!
 
So I successfully removed the air box and despite the fact that it was a royal pain in the a$$ to squeeze the assembly out, I'm really glad I did.

Quick tip: after loosening the gasket rings and sliding the gaskets off the throttle bodies, I kind of squeezed these gaskets inwards and upwards to pop them up and out of the frame. Pretty robust those suckers.

Here is what I found on the bottom of my air box:
gz_airbox_bottom.jpg

#1 is the nipple for the stepper (based on previous posts). The PO blocked this off with electrical tape. It seems solid, but surely there's a better way to do this?

#2 was a shocker. This appears to be the remnants of the oil drain pipe for oil that accumulates in the bottom of the air box. This looks like it had long been sheered off at the nipple so oil would have been dripping straight down on the clutch rod assembly, which was indeed appropriately black with oil and grime.

I began to ponder where the original line might have drained... surely nowhere near hot exhaust pipes or, even worse, the rear wheel!

Looking under the R side of da Carc I found:
gz_drain_area.jpg

I believe A is the original drain hose for the tank and I'm guessing B is what is left of the other end of the oil drain tube from the air box.

B seems dangerously close to the rear wheel for an oil outlet?

I also found a little present tucked away behind the rear brake cylinder:
gz_tanktube_found.jpg


It looks like Guzzi stashed away the original Euro emissions elbow behind the right lower foot control fairing! It was tucked way back there and zip-tied off so hard to spot. It appears to lead to outlet A in the previous picture of the drain area. This is great, since I was wondering how I would route the two vent hoses from under the tank efficiently. grazie mille!

Finally I inspected what lurked beneath the air box:
gz_under_airbox.jpg

Of course I took the time to clean the oil residue from inside the throttle bodies.

The blue taped-off hose seems solid enough... heavy duty stuff with no perforations.

Does anyone with more experienced eyes see anything obviously bad that should be addressed down here? The Norge will be getting a fresh set of plugs tomorrow.

Thanks!
 
The oil drain from the airbox on my Breva 1100 goes straight down vertically and sits behind my center stand and just behind the brake switch, it is plugged and is meant to be drained monthly. Doesn't go anywhere near the rear wheel, it is loosely secured in a steel loop. The plastic "T" piece should sit just behind the tank , it joins the two black pipes from the fuel tank, i believe one is overflow drain and the other a breather, that pipe is secured in a clip under the CARC.
The other pipe i have that is secured to the CARC comes from a small storage area next to the battery. Why not connect the stepper motor pipe back as its meant to be, it should receive filtered air. Kev
 
The #2 drain on the bottom of the airbox picture should be plugged so it doesn't leak oil but more importantly, so unfiltered air doesn't reach the throttle bodies. There should be a drain tube attached that travels downwards as Kevin says. The end of the tube has a rubber plug.
 
Late to this party, and no time to respond at length as packing for Atlanta trip.

That said -- and apologies if my hurried reading of the thread missed something -- a few quick points from my BTDT files.

The air box drain hose is -- or was for me, anyway -- a difficult item to install if removed. Finally attached lower end to a light length of coat-hanger and started threading it down by hand to the right spot at bottom. Use a MUCH longer piece than you need, and tie off when in place or you'll find yourself doing it again. At least I did!

Getting the air box BACK in will age you a year or so ... or, as said, it did me. have now done that quite a few times, and dread it, especially the throttle-body snorkels reconnect.

While air box is out, I'd replace Oil Pressure sensor, but search for threads on this as the OEM is dodgy.

There is a (non-dealer) Guzzi whiz in Jax; Italian guy; I'll get is 411 and post in a bit.

Where in the Black Forest? My family is nearby in Wurmlingen (Tuttlingen).

Best,

Bill
 
The oil drain from the airbox on my Breva 1100 goes straight down vertically and sits behind my center stand and just behind the brake switch, it is plugged and is meant to be drained monthly. Doesn't go anywhere near the rear wheel, it is loosely secured in a steel loop. The plastic "T" piece should sit just behind the tank , it joins the two black pipes from the fuel tank, i believe one is overflow drain and the other a breather, that pipe is secured in a clip under the CARC.
The other pipe i have that is secured to the CARC comes from a small storage area next to the battery. Why not connect the stepper motor pipe back as its meant to be, it should receive filtered air. Kev

Thanks for that Kev, I was scratching my head at an oil outlet near the tire. I'll take some of the extra hose from under the seat and fashion a new one, drop it down, attach and plug it with something. I wonder what the purpose of Pipe B was..

Regarding the stepper, I suppose the PO had the problem with high idle and just blocked it off. Just so we're on the same page, it has to be the metal device between the throttle bodies that has been blocked off with the blue tape? A on/off valve inline would be placed between this hose and another hose connected to the air box. I'd open it up for cold starts then close it once warm.
 
While air box is out, I'd replace Oil Pressure sensor, but search for threads on this as the OEM is dodgy.

There is a (non-dealer) Guzzi whiz in Jax; Italian guy; I'll get is 411 and post in a bit.

Where in the Black Forest? My family is nearby in Wurmlingen (Tuttlingen).

Best,

Bill

I hear you, I'm already dreading shoving the air box back in there, now with the added bonus of hose-management. I will make sure that the TB Gaskets are properly lubed so they hopefully just slide on nicely.

Jax is about 5-6 hours drive from me, but better than nothing if I really have issues. Would appreciate that info when you get around to it.

I'm afraid I won't have time to order the oil pressure sensor and install before I put the bike together, i'm headed to Germany for the season in a week. At this point I'm trying to finish up and test it before I leave so it'll be good to go next winter.

Tuttlingen is not at all far, I'm located near Triberg, right on the famous B500. Sadly no Guzzi over there, just a wonderful Yamaha Tracer 700 that loves the twisties. Will be sure to test the new V85 TT soon though :happy:.
 
Another update, and apologies for being so verbose but these postings are also a reference for the future me trying to figure out what/how I did things.

I managed to replace both inner spark plugs. It appears the PO had a tough time with this as the R side plug was only in halfway and the exposed upper threads were caked in solid, dried anti-seize.

I couldn't have done it without the motion pro thin-walled socket mentioned previously in this thread, not only because the socket fits all the way to the bottom with millimeters of clearance, but also because the extension bar swivels on the head just enough to allow me to tighten the socket despite the frame being almost directly above the plug hole.

For reference here's picture of the socket on the (easier) L side:
gz_sparkplug_socket.jpg


My only criticism of the tool is that the inner gasket that holds the plug grips it incredibly tightly. I had to pull the old plugs out of the socket with pliers after removing them. Of course this meant it got stuck on the new plugs both times. Luckily the socket has 2 holes near the bottom allowing me to use a pick tool to pull the socket out, but not without considerable force.

I'm honestly baffled that some of you can replace the R side plug without removing the air box, even with it out it proved quite difficult to get at with the frame and the solid, nearly immovable cable bundle in the way. I tried the trick with putting a solid piece of fuel line on the end of the plug to turn it, but that only got it started before it got too difficult to turn by tubing alone. You have to be really careful that the plug is perfectly straight going down too, I actually had a couple gut-wrenching misthreads before I got the perfect angle to bottom the plug out. One thing is for sure, I'm never spending life's precious time doing that again.


I then put everything back together. I removed the shoddy electrical tape that was covering the air box nipple for the stepper and instead plugged it with a solid 3/8" vacuum plug. This plug is easy to get to from the outside as is the blocked-off hose for the stepper should I decide to fit a on/off valve on in the future. I also dropped a hose straight down from the bottom of the air box where the old one had sheared off to collect excess oil, plugged it properly, and zip-tied it to the (former) center stand bolt hole.

I also routed 2 fresh hoses from the overflow and vent nipples of the tank to the correct T junction for proper drainage.

Everything was going really well and I was getting excited about finally starting her up soon... and then l I got to connecting the fuel line. No matter how I pushed the white-collared adapter into the red nipple, it just didn't seem as tight as it was before I took it off. I hear a faint click as the adapter slides over the ring on the red connector, but it's very easy to just pull it off again with 2 fingers, so I have serious doubts that it's seated properly, especially for a high pressure fuel line. It required significantly more force to get off when I started than it does now.

Here's a picture with it "on" as best as I could manage, does that look on all the way?
gz_fuel_connector.jpg


I don't know if white connector is broken internally or what, it still has the 4 little teeth inside to grip the red connector but the white collar doesn't move back towards the fuel line (should it?) and the fact that it easily slips off now doesn't instill confidence.

If I should replace it, I'd like to put on an easier to work with quick connect adapter. Does anyone know of any off-the-shelf solution that works well? Maybe from Napa, autozone or the like... My red connector looks fine btw, so I don't need the hassle to replace that. I' would have to cut the old one off at the adapter and then fit a new one which I've read requires special tools for refitting (although I read somewhere that soaking the fuel line in boiling water could make it pliable enough).
 
Without fuel pressure they come off pretty easy. Do a quick test by turning the key on. If it squirts gas, you have a problem, if it doesn't you are OK.
 
The handful of times I've removed the tank, I've noticed that the fuel connector gives almost no feedback. When remove it, I can't tell when it has released - it just does after a bit of manipulating. With the freed hose end of the connector in one hand, there is little to no movement of the white collar when I try to move it around with my other hand. It seems to operate like an air hose quick connector, but doesn't offer the tactile feedback of the air hose.
 
Once you turn on the ign and the line presurises up you might find the black fuel line moves and the white connector will snap into position or as John says you get fuel spraying everywhere.
 
Thanks all, I'll give it a shot and see what happens when the line pressurizes. I did lube the connector slightly as kiwi dave suggested before reattaching so that may have made it extra easy to slip on and off.

For some reason I was expecting the white collar to have something like a spring action to it, but as jdub posted that's not the case.
 
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