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1000s Wiring Help - Part 2 - Starter Blowing Fuse

E

ejand22

Just got it firing!
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Messages
15
Hey guys, I'm back with another wiring issue... ugh.

After recently figuring out the turn signal issue I was having (see here: https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/197/9527.html) the bike now has a new problem. Pressing the starter button blows the #1 fuse.

I was able to get one short ride out of the bike after getting the turn signals working (starter button worked correctly), but after that ride pressing the starter button would sometimes turn the starter, sometimes just click. It did that for a bit and then started blowing fuses. Now it blows the fuse every time the starter button is depressed. I hear a solid 'click' from the solenoid, but then the fuse pops. I can push start the bike and it will run fine.

Some things I can think of that are worth noting:
1. The front turn signals are grounded to the bottom fork clamp (lower triple) per the previous owner's location. (is that correct?). I've grounded the signals to the frame in another location and it didn't make any difference.
2. The fuse will blow even with the kill switch in the 'Off' position. I get the same solenoid click.
3. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the starter and kill switches at the handlebar. The wiring seems clean and undamaged.

Ugh, I just want to ride! Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Eric
 
Check to see if the starter solenoid wire is touching the neutral switch on the transmission. The neutral switch is grounded when in neutral (typical for starting these days) and if it's touching that starter solenoid lead, bang, the fuse blows. BTDT. The problem could be something else but at least this is easy thing to check.
 
Sounds like bad starter or solenoid. You my want to remove the starter and bench test it with a fresh battery. Some auto parts stores will do it for you. I say remove the starter so you don't accidently ground the battery to the frame or engine block.
 
Like other Guzzi's the relay gets it's power through the ignition switch. Like other machines, you my want to do the starter relay mod and improve the power supply to the relay. https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/196/4908.html The wire colors are probably different but the principal is the same. Give relay contact number 30 a direct fused line from the battery. Over the years the switch contact may not be conducting well and the extra load to energize the solenoid may be blowing the fuse. Be sure to isolate pin 86 from pin 30 so the relay can't energize with the key off.
 
Hey guys, thanks for the replies. My first thought was that it might be the starter relay issue, but the fact that power seems to be getting to the starter even when the kill switch is in 'OFF' led me to believe that it might be something else.

I'll check the neutral switch wiring (where is that exactly?) and pull the starter to bench test them this weekend. Hopefully a magnet didn't come loose from the housing.

In regards to the starter relay fix - does the attached diagram look correct? I've annotated the stock diagram. The only outstanding question I have is what to do with the wire that bridges both the starter relay and the horn relay. Can it be left unattached or does it need to be connected to power?

Thanks again guys!
Eric
 

Attachments

  • 1000s Wiring Diagram MODIFIED.pdf
    1.1 MB · Views: 54
The wire that you disconnect from pin 30, needs to stay connected to pin 86. If possible just remove the connector and tape it off and insert the new wire to on 30, It may even be easier to just get a 30 amp automotive relay from the parts store and jumper as necessary. The larger 30 amp relays tent to be more robust and easier to obtain. Other than adding a fuse to the wire to pin 30, I don't believe any other changes would be needed. Also if the 1000s uses the same relay as the newer bikes, one of the harness from MPH for the relay mod would make the job really easy.
 
Hi Eric

First the kill switch has nothing to do with the starter motor circuit on the older bikes, it simply isolates the supply to the ignition circuit, so the starter can still turn, but it won't start the engine as there is no supply to the coils/plugs.

The neutral switch is on the side of the gearbox behind the starter motor, you will probably see the wire going to it. As Carl said its close to the starter contacts and if it touched the terminal on the solenoid it would short the circuit if bike was in neutral and starter circuit activated.

Regards your mod - If it was me I'd move the existing wire on pin 30 and move it to pin 86 of the starter relay (the blue black wire), then remove the looped wire between pin 30 and 86. This would stop the relay being energized with the ignition switch in the OFF position.

Run a heavy wire direct from the battery to pin 30 of the starter relay. As JZ has already said it should be fused, I'd just use one of these in-line fuses you can usually pick up from any auto store.

John
 
Thanks for the quick replies! I've modified the wiring diagram with the suggestions you guys have made and have attached it. I think I understand now.

Hopefully I can find some time to get to the garage tonight!
 

Attachments

  • 1000s Wiring Diagram MODIFIED.pdf
    1.1 MB · Views: 49
Spot on with the diagram Eric that should help give the starter solenoid more of a chance.

John
 
When I did the wiring for my T I noted that the pre engaged solenoid draws over 20a so I fitted a relay to power the solenoid . Like all solenoids .... when you energise the solenoid the armature is pulled in, If you hook up an amp meter ( and it has to be a goodie coz we are lookig at 30a here ) you would see that when the started button is pushed the initial current is around 30a ( 1/2 a second , which is not long enough to blow fuse ) and once the soleniod is FULLY closed ... the current draw drops to under20a ( just the solenoid NOT the starter motor itself ) and the contacts to the starter are closed thus spinning the starter. If the armature does not reach full travel or there is some delay in reaching full travel ( solenoid full of crap ) the solenoid will continue to draw over 30a and blow the fuse, and the solenoid contacts will not close preventing current getting to the starter. I would be looking at reasons for that armature not moving full travel at all or just not fast enough, and seeing as how you get a click I would think that the solenoid armature is jamming rather than an electrical fault
jm2c
Hamish
 
McTool is absolutely correct with the solenoid operation and description, IMHO that's good advice.

Similar problems can result if the heavy connection between the battery and starter solenoid are poor and introduce too much resistance.

Its got to do with the solenoid being double wound, in other words having 2 coils, one has a lower resistance than the other. The low resistance coil is earthed through the solenoid and motor windings. When the starter is first pressed both coils have a current and the low resistance one allows a whacking great current to pass. This introduces a strong field ensuring the solenoid core is pulled into engagement positively and quickly. Once the solenoid is engaged voltage is introduced to the starter and it operates. This also means that low resistance coil in the solenoid now has a voltage on what was previously its earth path. When this happens current doesn't flow in the low resistance coil and the solenoid is held in solely by the other higher resistance coil.

If for any reason that low resistance coil has a current flow that lasts more than a fraction of a second the fuse will blow.

I have a nice little pdf drawn up by KiwiRoy he posts on both here and WG, I hope he doesn't mind but I'll attach it to here as it shows what happens very neatly indeed.

John
 

Attachments

  • Bosch Starter.pdf
    50.3 KB · Views: 35
Hey guys, thanks for the thoughts. Here's a bit of an update.

1. I rewired the relay per the diagram.
2. I checked the neutral switch - it's not touching. There's a good 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch between the connections.

The starter spun the motor on the first thumb of the starter button, but then blew the new in-line fuse to the relay on the second, third and fourth tries.

Looks like I'll be pulling the starter next... unless there's a chance that the relay is bad or I can jump it while it's on the bike.
 
Ok, starter is pulled. I can't for the life of me figure out how to bench test it! I feel dumb.

Can somebody help me? Thanks.
 
ejand22 said:
Ok, starter is pulled. I can't for the life of me figure out how to bench test it! I feel dumb.

Can somebody help me? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Have a good size car battery and connect the negative to a mounting ear, and the positive to the big lug with a nut at the solenoid. Then jumper the positive at the solenoid to the spade terminal. However, I wouldn't waste my time with this at this point. I'd remove the solenoid and lubricate the lever/solenoid plunger and bendix, then bench test it. If she snaps to, then install and put a new fuse in. If it still blows a fuse, then take it to a starter shop for a more in depth repair.
 
A note on the bench test. There's a lot of torque in that little bugger. If it works, it could easily jump onto the floor or some other place you don't want it. Be careful.
 
Secure the starter to the bench, in a vice will do as it gives a bit of a kick when it starts.
Attach a jumper lead from the Negative terminal of a suitable 12 battery to the metal case of the starter motor.
There are two bolts on the solonoid, on the top one, the one you disconnected from your bike battery attach a jumper lead from the positive of the suitable battery to this terminal. Do not let the lead touch the lower bolt otherwise the starter motor will operate. Do not let the lead touch the starter motor case or there will be a big flash.
Then connect a wire from the Positve of the battery to the spade terminal on the starter motor.
The solenoid will operate and the Starter Motor will jump into life. Keep all loose clothing etc away from the motor.
Cheers Kevin
 
Hey guys, thanks for the help.

I stripped the starter and used almost an entire can of electronics cleaner on it (there was a bunch of dust in the motor housing), lubed everything, put it back together and then bench tested it. It worked! I've started it around 10 times on the bike with no issues whatsoever.

Thanks again everyone!
 
Trout said:
Sounds like bad starter or solenoid. You my want to remove the starter and bench test it with a fresh battery. Some auto parts stores will do it for you. I say remove the starter so you don't accidently ground the battery to the frame or engine block.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry guys but I have to do this. This was the 2nd suggestion made in this thread and after all the rewiring & re-relaying & time spent it was where the problem was. I always say start with the basics.

Trout
 
I would agree, but the rewiring of the relay is something that a lot of people do to good affect. It also took me less than an hour to do. It was very simple.
 
I'll not argue that point at all. I guess I still approach things as a shop owner from years ago. The quicker I could correctly diagnose a problem the quicker I could get the job done and it would cost the customer less.

My post was meant to be a poke in the ribs, a LOL or when we were kids we used to say: "AHHH Bags on you! I got it first"
 
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