8V 1st service report.

[rustyrotor]

Steel Horse Cycles in Williamsburg, VA handled the first service.

They are NOT the original dealer so no blame for the below is stated or implied.

Just the opposite.

Great shop.
Attentive, clean, organized, informed and informative.
I strongly endorse them.

Here's what they found:

LH valve clearances substantially tight.
RH dead on.

LH spark plug clearance very tight.
RH dead on.

TPS wildly off. 5 pts of adjustment off.

Throttle bodies wildly off.

Gearbox underfilled by about 40%.
Rear end underfilled by about 50%.

The speedo sensor was replaced. One bolt boogered from factory.
The indicator fault traced to a badly seated connector in the instrument cluster.

They run the fluids through what look like coffee filters.
No chips or other signs of damage. Just the usual superfine metallic dust.
Phew.

The bike feels renewed. Reinvigorated. Shifting is improved though still clunky. Let's see what time does to that. No recurrence so far of refusal to shift.

The surging on steady or barely opening throttle under 4k rpm has ceased to be erratic or dramatic. It's still there, but is now subtle and regular.
The sensation is like riding on a road that has a long succession of gentle and regularly spaced frost heaves.

Farting on closed throttle has ceased!

Power is improved throughout the rev range, as is throttle response.

Fuel mileage has improved as well.
I am now occassionally seeing mileage in the very low 40's, where previously
indicated mileage never got above mid-30's.

There always has to be a but, and here it is:
Pre-ignition. Lots of it. Grab more than half throttle in 5th/6th, 65-70-75 mph,
and it'll sound like it's dropped a valve.

I suppose I could put the airbox lid back on, and start poking holes in it, one at a time. Tedious.

Is it Power Commander time?

One question re all the fluid/spark plug/tps/tb issues.

Is that the responsibility of the original dealer, or the factory?

 

[Gary]

I had similar 'pinking' problems, just put hotter plugs in.

 

[Penis Rotor]

None of 'em 4V or 8V, seem to like having the intake/airbox lid buggered about with. As you say, a decent map modifier is needed.

The 'Pre-ignition' probably isn't. It's more likely detonation. Dunno what RPM you'd be doing there I'll have to check on mine but it's probably below 5,500-6,000 and if you want to make rapid progress I keep mine above that. Shows that the VE must be good though, I know that at the top end mine is absurdly rich. I've been meaning to start playing with airbox lids but simply hven't had time and I want to get the PCV on it before I start really mucking about.

Stuff like plugs, oil and TPS are all stuff I'd do, as wellas setting the valves, as part of the PD. No you shouldn't have to but I'd far preffer to KNOW everything was right before it went out the door than have the customer dis-satisfied.

Pete

 

[rustyrotor]

Dumbass alert!

Please relieve my ignorance and explain the difference between preignition and detonation. In the US I've heard them used interchangeably.

I understand pre-ignition ( AKA pinging) to mean the premature ignition of the charge, before the proper moment. It is a harsh, brittle, metallic sound, and usually a symptom of leanness, particularly under load.

 

[rustyrotor]

I contacted the original dealer.

The service manager listened to my story, promised to look into it and get back to me.
This he did promptly.

In essence, he claims that all of the above is normal for a brand new bike, and not their fault; That TPS's drift when new, ditto throttle bodies, that gear oil evaporates or boils off, valves seat themselves.

I call bullshit. Especially the gear oil.

You?

 

[Penis Rotor]

rustyrotor wrote:

I contacted the original dealer.

In essence, he claims that all of the above is normal for a brand new bike, and not their fault; That TPS's drift when new, ditto throttle bodies, that gear oil evaporates or boils off, valves seat themselves.

TPS? Mine never drifted on my 1100 or my 1200. It was set wrong at the factory on the 11, the 12 was perfect, every time I check it? Perfect!

TB's It's got a bloody linkage rod and the butterfly spindles are in bushes in the TB. Yes they may change minutely as they wear. I've done mine once, at the 1'st service. They remain resolutely ballances to within a poofteenth at 20,000 ish Km.

If the gear oil is boiling there is something serously wrong with the box! Is smoke pouring out of the breather!!!!!!

Valves? I always set em a thou or so loose on Pre-Delivery because they *may* settle a bit if the seats have been cut less than perfectly but by 800Km/500 miles they should of bedded in nicely. The 2VPC models seem to open their gaps up usually. The 4VPC models have a tendency to close. Don't ask me? I only work on 'em!!!!

Pete

 

[RJVB]

TPS drifts (a lot) on some bikes, on others it doesn't. Or so it seems.

First time I read that the 8V models also ping. I thought the new chamber design had taken care of that issue...

 

[Penis Rotor]

RJVB wrote:

TPS drifts (a lot) on some bikes, on others it doesn't. Or so it seems.

First time I read that the 8V models also ping. I thought the new chamber design had taken care of that issue...

Why would it 'Drift' Rene? Give me a reason.

My 8V has run in temperatures from -8*C to +43*C. It has NEVER shown any signs of detonation. If they detonate then they either haven't been built right, their owners are not fueling 'em right or they aren't set up right.

Pete

 

[RJVB]

I'd love to know, Pete. I'm just reporting on what I read. Judging from the price, the TPS modules nowadays aren't simple potentiometers (variable resistances) that can be "reset" with a voltmeter, so I have no idea what's inside.

Can you give me a reason why this electric/electronic component would *not* drift? In principle, any analog sensor can, and for a traditional 'pot', it could just be wear of the resistor track I guess.

Is there much one can tune to reduce or augment pinging? Apart from fuel or mapping, that'd be the ignition advance, no?

 

[Sprocket]

Is TPS resetting on the 8v's a matter of backing out the throttle body plates till they stick and then hitting reset on the VDST, to align the butterflies/ throttle with the fuel maps, or is there a different procedure on a guzzi? Just curious. I must say that comming off a Buell i thought that the 8v fuelled realy good, i did not notice any transisions between open and closed loop?

 

[rustyrotor]

Thanks all. Very instructive.

Some questions remain and fall into the 'what to do about it' category:

What do I do about that original dealer?

Seems to me they likely defrauded the original buyer. I am not him.
I do have to live with any consequences coming from their inaction.
This gives me standing, with Piaggio and elsewhere.

What do I do about the pinging?
Stuff the airbox lid back on there and harm that good VE?
Put the airbox lid on and start poking 1" holes in it?

Here's an interesting one, and utterly counterintuitive: Steel Horse suggests to try avoiding fuel containing alcohol.

To use only straight gas, if I can find it, even giving preference to 89 octane non-alcohol fuel over 93 octane blends.

This suggestion apparently coming from Guzzi.

God I wish I could gas up in Germany. Saw 3-4 high octane fuels, up to 100 octane,
at the big chain stations there. Sure you pay a pretty penny but...

Cheers!

 

[john zibell]

Sprocket wrote:

Is TPS resetting on the 8v's a matter of backing out the throttle body plates till they stick and then hitting reset on the VDST, to align the butterflies/ throttle with the fuel maps, or is there a different procedure on a guzzi? Just curious. I must say that comming off a Buell i thought that the 8v fuelled realy good, i did not notice any transisions between open and closed loop?

No. don't touch the TBs. TPS position on the 5AM bikes is set electronically using Axone/Navagator/VDSTS.

 

[john zibell]

rustyrotor wrote:

Thanks all. Very instructive.

Some questions remain and fall into the 'what to do about it' category:

What do I do about that original dealer?

Seems to me they likely defrauded the original buyer. I am not him.
I do have to live with any consequences coming from their inaction.
This gives me standing, with Piaggio and elsewhere.

What do I do about the pinging?
Stuff the airbox lid back on there and harm that good VE?
Put the airbox lid on and start poking 1" holes in it?

Here's an interesting one, and utterly counterintuitive: Steel Horse suggests to try avoiding fuel containing alcohol.

To use only straight gas, if I can find it, even giving preference to 89 octane non-alcohol fuel over 93 octane blends.

This suggestion apparently coming from Guzzi.

God I wish I could gas up in Germany. Saw 3-4 high octane fuels, up to 100 octane,
at the big chain stations there. Sure you pay a pretty penny but...

Cheers!

For the pinging. Put the lid back on and forget about drilling holes. Opening up the intake is less productive than you may imagine. Don't mess with the air flow until Todd's PC V is operational and you can adjust fueling to match airflow. The 5 AM bikes are dialed pretty well as is, but if you mess with them there is a price to pay. I think the only change to intake safely made is to switch to a higher flow air filter (e.g. K&N), more that that the ECU can't compensate and you are asking for problems, like you now have.

 

[RJVB]

Re: ethanol: tuning is probably for the 95 octane fuel known here as SP95, which until now is in fact E5. That is, it has 5% of ethanol mixed in. Any more, and you risk corrosion/deterioration of joints, hoses etc. (interestingly, I just read that 98 octane fuel is also more corrosive...).
So, indeed, don't tank up with E10 or E15 if you can. Not sure how the presence of ethanol would affect pinging, but I imagine it might.

 

[StormShearon]

Well here in the good 'ole USA, you are doing really well to find any fuel that does not have up to 10% corn in it. I have not found any here in Washington. In the Seattle area, if I am forced to run in heavy stop and go (mostly stop) traffic with air temps over 85, I can get ping on acceleration once going again, though it seems to go away once away from the stop and go traffic.

 

[RJVB]

Which makes one wonder why they're issuing warnings here NOT to use E10 until further notice...

 

[Sprocket]

My 8v has developed an oil leak around the left cylinder, seems lower than the rocker cover but can't tell for sure? I notice it when my foot slipped off the peg! Took it up the hotwash and now it seems to have stopped? Bike has about 300ks only, so maybe this is just tolerances taking up?? No noises, no lights all seems normal. Has anyone else heard of this?

 

[RJVB]

On the 2V motors, the hoses feeding oil to the heads tended to develop leaks around where they were fixed to the head. Often on the RHS. (That's at least what I've been told). No idea if oil arrives in the heads via a similar, external way on the 4V motors, but worth checking. On affected 2V models, the oil would be visible on the injector bodies, but it would flow onto one's feet if the leak was bad enough.

 

[rustyrotor]

My bike did the exact same thing. Doug at Steel Horse tells me he's seen one bike leak from an overtorqued line behind the head, plus there is also some kind of breather right above the starter.

I no longer see anything on the lower head, but still get a little splatter on my left boot and on the starter cover.

I think it's not something to worry about much.

 

[Sprocket]

Thanks all, will keep an eye on it and note it to the mechanic at first service.