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8V Failure info.

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Since it is becoming a recurring theme (the 8V tappets/cams saga) wouldn't it be useful to have some stickied & locked thread with a chronological series of all 8V changes?

Something like (beware, imaginary data!):
mmyy , 8V A5 engine introduced
mmyy, tappet recall issued, tappets alloy changed to blablanium
mmyy, cam recall issued, cam bosses do not need shims
mmyy, A8 engine introduced, different cam lobes
mmyy, A5 cam recall issued - cams needing shims
etc


So Pete, every time someone has relevant trouble, you can just point him to this thread and save yourself a lot of time and keyboard wear - I cannot recall how many times I have seen that you have answered this matter all over the forum...
 
All the data and information is there for the people who NEED to know it. The dealers and service agents. Whether they can be bothered to find it out is another matter.

The reason why I am willing to continue, Quixotically it often seems, to keep repeating the same information seemingly endlessly is simply that I dislike untruths being promulgated as fact and I particularly dislike it if it is dressed up as blustering outrage and indignant cant espoused by the ignorant!

I will be the first to try to get to the bottom of a percieved problem and publicize it if I see it OR I BELIEVE ONE EXISTS!!!!! The thing is EVERY TIME it has been suggested that there is an ongoing issue with the 8V motor and I have put forward information about changes to parts or even the fact that the right oil is really important and why the issue has tended to suddenly go quiet! I wonder why????

I can't wave a magic wand that will make every bike bulletproof but I WILL continue to defend the basic integrity of the design until I start seeing problems. Then I will publicize what I find and people can make their own minds up about whether I'm right or wrong.

I'm not right all the time, far from it, and if I am you'll find I always 'fess up. Until I see scientific, peer reviewed, evidence that I'm wrong though I'll rely on my own observations and the tell me the design is sound.

Pete
 
Hi guys – I posted on the Oil Leak thread but no feedback yet so trying this thread instead as it covers several of the topics that Pete Roper has written about and I’d love some advice from you Pete!
First off – my 2008 Griso 8v suits me just fine. I use it to commute every day to work – rain or shine – plus to get me round traffic -snarled Brisbane. So as a traffic beater it’s perfect. Yes I’d get more economy with a scooter, but would people lean out of car windows at traffic lights with big smiles and thumbs up? So I admit I’m a patrician poseur! Yes it is a large outlay of hard earned akkers but parking costs in Brisbane mean that the bike is paid for in parking savings alone. Living in Queensland with dream rides across the NSW border ranges on your doorstep means the Griso gets to stretch its legs when I get time and the riding position suits both the traffic and the longer hauls. Any sportier and my ageing back would ache in the traffic and I’d be tempted to redline it on the freeways more than I do. So all this unconditional love for my Mandello Macchina means I forgive it for anything!
I have 15000 kms on the clock - though there may be a few more that went unrecorded whenever the speedo cacked itself – (Pete Roper's fix was too late and so I've ordered a new unit which will have the Roper seal from day 1!). Had the tappets done on the recall at first service and there was a warranty fix on a clutch plate problem done at the dealers after about 9000kms. I fitted the Termi pipe a few months ago and left in the db killer. Plus got the ECU remapped #068. Though I haven’t done the drilled out holes on the airbox cover yet. I reckon it was working a treat - breathing better and just a bit of pop on the overrun which I happen to like. BUT then I spotted a few drops of oil under the bike a couple of months ago. It was after a 2 hour high speed run. I couldn't work out where it was coming from. Some seemed to be misting down from under the tank, but there seemed to be more coming from the lower parts. I checked the oil level and it didn't need topping up. The clutch and brake oils seemed full too. I couldn't sniff the difference either, nor could the Brissie/Gold Coast dealers. I mentioned the main seal possibility but they couldn't tell me what was wrong without taking the whole thing apart. I checked this forum and there were a lot of helpful suggestions which I printed out for the dealer. The bike was out of warranty but the parts were offered free (flange case, push rod seals, O rings etc – thanks John Sample Group – though they took a couple of months to arrive). However it's the labour that costs ($1100 ouch). Have just got the bike back and running sweet again - no leaks so far but I need a long high speed run to really see. The dealer couldn't tell where the trouble had come from. So I'm still in the dark. One thing leads to another however and in checking out the engine, the dealer said that the exhaust valves were white as a sheet. Uh oh! I don't have the spare cash after this last bill to get all the guzzitech gizmos new ECU/PCV plus Auto Tune others have suggested to regularise the lean burn. I’m very happy with performance with the Termi and the new #068 map. I'm not getting any lurching or irregularity in the throttle response. It’s only the dealer making me worry about the white valves. One previous thread from Pete re white exhaust valves said not to be a big girl’s blouse. Shall I tell my dealer that and just keep riding, or should I be saving my shekels once more for a new PCV, Auto Tune and O2 sensor and anything else designed to keep me on the road but part me from my money!!?? What to do???
 
Pete will tell you don't need to do anything... but if you want it to run 100% better, I can offer up my ECU re-flash that will put a smile on your face. It is step/stage one of my full kit, but is very good stand alone.
Ping me direct e-mail; Todd at GuzziTech.com
 
What is the exhaust valve color of bikes with the original exhaust?
I wonder if it is any darker, suggesting richer overall AFR with the stock exhaust.

As suggested before, despite closed loop AFR control, maybe the lambda sensor reads richer AFR than combustion actual due to unburned fuel escaping through the long valve overlap timing (thanks Pete! this has been usefull info) due to less back pressure by the aftermarket exhaust.
That is, do you risk exhaust valve health on the long run if you just put a free pipe with no other modification?
 
What I will say is that if you run a much more free flowing pipe without modifying the original mapping the bike won't run very well. it will also significantly impact on performance and not in a good way. Whether it is likely to cause long term damage I can't say and I'm certainly not going to experiment by making my bike run badly deliberately to find out.

As for the efficacy of Todd's sollutions? I can't say. I bought the full PC V-AT package and it didn't work on my bike. I have no idea why. By the time I had taken it back to LA to experiment with it on my 8V there the factory had developed the #68 map and with that installen on my properly tuned and set up bikes I felt I no longer needed a map modifier as the machines ran perfectly acceptably for me and the plugs told me that the mixture was pretty much OK thoughout the majority of the rev and load range. This was at odds with what an EGA told me but since my concern is what is happening in the combustion chamber, not in the exhaust pipe, I'll run with the quaint and old-fashioned plug diagnosis. Especially as I understand what the cams are doing for the way the engine pumps.

If you wish to fit an obnoxiously loud, unrestrictive pipe or arse about with the airbox chasing performance increases you will definitely need some form of map modifier and Todd has put a lot of time and effort into developing sollutions. As previously stated to get the best from the PCV-AT package,at least with the A5 motor, you will need to retro-engineer the motor by re-camming it and I look forward to seeing the results of Todd's findings when he gets the German cams I bought him installed in his A5 Stelvio.

For my own part I'm considering machining up some adjustable sprockets to see if anything can be achieved by simply advancing the cam timing by a few degrees. I say 'Considering' though because my 8V here, apart from being very loud mechanically, runs very nicely. If I want more power it is, in my book at least, far more sensible to simply buy myself an RSV-4 to loose my licence on! :mrgreen: As for it's fuelling at anything other than WFO? It's perfectly acceptable to me, so why would I want to screw with it?

Pete
 
Just had a report of a 2010 Stelvio NTX which was running rough. Again, the cam followers were buggered. Now I can't say what followers were fitted, but the bike was a new 2010 model. Same dealer has two other NTX models in the workshop with the same problem.
One dealer here is blaming it on low oil pressure, though I don't know if there is any evidence to uphold that.
 
Brian UK said:
Just had a report of a 2010 Stelvio NTX which was running rough. Again, the cam followers were buggered. Now I can't say what followers were fitted, but the bike was a new 2010 model. Same dealer has two other NTX models in the workshop with the same problem.
One dealer here is blaming it on low oil pressure, though I don't know if there is any evidence to uphold that.
Click to expand...

I think the first relevant question after it is determined whether the updated cam followers were used is was the PROPER 10W60 Synthetic oil was used before anyone gets there Knickers in a knot.
 
The other thing is that the tappets are not pressure fed. The cams rotate in a 'Bath' in the cambox and splosh oil around. The oil arrives in the top end in large quantities. If there was insufficient delivery the pressure would have to be so low that the mains and big ends would of shat themselves long before damage would of occured to the tappets. Sorry, once again it sound like a diagnosis by a 'Mechanic' who doesn't know their trade and that being the case I'll bet a bus full of beehives they are using sone cheapshit lubricant becaue it's 'Only a Guzzi'.

As long as Piaggio UK continues to use clowns like this their reputation will remain in the gutter!! :roll:

Pete
 
Correct me if I am wrong but don't most usual everyday engines in cars and bikes have unpressurized camshaft/valve system lubing? I think that only the variable timing systems use pressurized oil in the head area of most "usual" modern engines, am I right?
 
Errr. No. The vast majority of modern cars have single or double overhead cam engines that have the camshafts rotating in plain bearings in the head or separate bearing pillars. Plain bearings HAVE to be pressure fed but the cams themselves are not. Once again they are splash fed from a bath.

The big difference between the Guzzi and BMW 'Hi-Cam' design and that in the majority of car engines is the way the cams operate the valves and the reciprocating mass in the valvetrain and it's effect on the loadings to not only the *Soild* parts but also the lubricant.

The biggest issue remains not so much one of loadings but one of HEAT. Both the decks of the pistons and the areas around the exhaust valves are cooled by oil. Especially the exhaust valve galleries will be running extremely high temperatures. Anything but a fully man-made il will swiftly degrade in such conditions and once degraded it can't do any of its jobs of lubricating, cooling or cleaning and failure of mechanical parts is inevitable.

As I've said before I have yet to see an example of an engine that has failed, or failed a second time, if the recall was done correctly using the RIGHT parts, including cams and tappets and a full ester, synthetic oil with the correct specifications has been used in the motor. If anything is wrong though? All bets are off.


Pete
 
This is a slightly more detailed description of what happened.
Dealer replaced the top end components in the left hand head. Started engine which immediately squeaked. Started engine without rocker covers on. No oil squirted from l/h components. Replaced oil pump. Now equal squirting on both sides. Oil pump and other detritus sent back to MG for diagnosis.
Don't yet know the grade of yak fat used. :twisted:
 
Thanks Pete!

So, the dealer that BrianUK says is blaming "low oil pressure" for tappet damage is just talking gibberish big time as virtually all modern engines bath lube these head parts, so either they are ignorant of their trade or most probably are just trying to fool their clients in an "educated" way instead of searching for the cause of damage.

I hate this every time I come across it in whatever market.
 
Brian UK said:
This is a slightly more detailed description of what happened.
Dealer replaced the top end components in the left hand head. Started engine which immediately squeaked. Started engine without rocker covers on. No oil squirted from l/h components. Replaced oil pump. Now equal squirting on both sides. Oil pump and other detritus sent back to MG for diagnosis.
Don't yet know the grade of yak fat used. :twisted:
Click to expand...

It Squeaked!!!!!!! God's teeth. Didn't they use any assembley lube and check that the cams were free to turn in the camboxes before re-nstalling them? Thet started the motor *dry* at the top end???

Left hand and right hand heads are fed from the same surce. If there was flow to the RH head but none to the LH head there has to either be a blockage in the oil line or the oil gallery in the barrel that carries oil to the cam bearings and top end on that side. I'm guessing that that may be possible but I'm not sure how.

If the tappets had previously failed inspecting the oil pump should be obligatory. The oil pumps are the only parts of the engine that get unfiltered oil. If they have ingested a whle heap of ground up tappet? All bets are off!

I was under the impression that the second oil pump delivers oil to the cooler and thence in volume to the heads. I haven't double checked byut I might be wrong on that. the cooled oil may just be returned to the sump as it is on the RSV-4, I'll have to check.

The annoying fact remains that MANY people who are working on the 8V engine seem to think that because it LOOKS like the old motor it plays by the same rules. IT DOESN'T. The oil issue IS critical due to the tasks it has to perform. Also there have been revisions to the camshafts that mean that if the wrong cams are installed wrongly a secondary failure is very much more likely to occur than if the system is assembled correctly. When the new camshaft was installed on this engine was the end float checked? Or did the person doing it simply stick the same end-flaot shim in and then bolt the cambox halves back together? If the latter its not surprusing it was squeaking! How is the oil expected to escape from the cam bearing if the end float is non existent due to a tihght shim? Oh, that's right! It's all magic isn't it. In that case they'd better employ a bloke with a pointy hat with stars and moons all over it and a wand with sparks coming off the end! :roll:

Pete
 
Actually this dealer in west Surrey has a high reputation, and the mechanic concerned has as many years in the business as you Pete. That doesn't mean he is always right of course, or that he never makes mistakes.
I have to admit, the screeching noise had me wondering what had gone on though.
 
Brian, that's fine. I just have an enormous amount of a problem with the whole "Oh, This motor is fundamentally flawed!' argument because I live in one of the most hostile areas in the world as far as this engine is concerned.

Over the year our temperature variation can go from minus eight centigrade to the mid forties centigrade. I ride my 8V all year round, although I will admit I rarely leave home before its got up to minus four!

On those low to mid forties days it will tend to start running a bit ragged in traffic! Well 'Hello!', so does my preposterous little Suzuki Jimny 4x4!!!! :lol:

My bike was smack-damn in the middle of the cam failure issue in the early bikes. It never failed. I continue to abuse it, really, I do, in the hope that I can find some of these 'Terrible Faults' that afflict the 8V. I can find none! Believe me, if I could I wouldn't try to hide them! But I can't! It remains stupidly reliable, won't go out of tune and goes like a cut snake! My customers' bikes are the same! What am I supposed to do? Ignore the evidence of my own experience when most of the cmplainers go suddenly very quiet when the cam-change issue is mentioned or the reasons why using the very best oil is needed is pointed out?

Piaggio may be a lot of things, not all of them particularly brilliant. But boy they build a good engine. It's just that its a bit *Different* to some and maybe, just maybe, the people who are working on them need to start 'Thinking outside the box' a bit. ie, start using their brains!!!!!!

Pete
 
You forgot to mention that yours is also a rattling loud one (isn't it?)
which promptly suggests that "noise" doesn't necessarily translate to "damage".
 
Pre- shimming for end float 8V's sound, almost universally, (Some miraculous ones are quiet!) like a cement mixer full of bricks! How they ever, EVER, got them through noise compliance here I'll never know!

Mine has the full trifecta of rattles! That caused by cam end float, that caused by cyclic cam chain noise, (May be linked to #1) and the third 'Horrid Noise' that I can't describe but Have heard on other models of a similar vintage that if you don't wear ear-plugs will make you think its about to melt into a pool of molten slag!

It's awful! Really! I wear ear plugs and my bike makes 104,8 RWHP and never goes wrong! It's mechanical noise! It's a machine! Derrr! Listen to an RSV-4. It isn't quiet either! It's part of the fun!!!!

Pete
 
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