A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issue.

[WayneOrwig]

I think that I would inspect and adjust them before the trip. Most importantly, try to measure them carefully as they are now, compared to how they were, to basically inspect them for abnormal wear.
It only takes a few minutes.

Keep good records of any changes.

 

[guzzirider]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

Bearing in mind that Corsa Italiana and Moto Strada are probably sell more Guzzis in the UK than anyone else, I would have expected them to have the most failures if there was a design fault.

From the sound of it, nobody really knows what has caused the few failures so far but they seem mainly confined to dealers that do not sell a lot of Guzzis so possibly inadequate PDI / servicing is a factor.

If you are used to PDI'ing Jap (or even other Italian) bikes (air in the tyres, and if you are lucky some polish on the tank) maybe those dealers do not take the amount of time it needs to properly set up the very few Guzzis they sell as a sideline.

One thing I did with mine is take it in for its first service at 600 miles rather than the 900 mile specified for the 8v motors- did not like the idea of having swarfy oil in the motor for longer than was necessary at Jason at Moto Strada was more than happy to do the first service early.

Anyway, I'm just guessing- mine is due for its annual service soon and Jason will be having a good look at the top end before I take her away to Europe again.

Guy

 

[Brian UK]

Apparantly, when the aformentioned discussion was taking place in Monaco, A Guzzi technical rep was listening in, When Paul asked what oil people used he went very thoughtful and dissapeared quickly.

 

[motoguzznix]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

guzzirider wrote:

From the sound of it, nobody really knows what has caused the few failures so far but they seem mainly confined to dealers that do not sell a lot of Guzzis so possibly inadequate PDI / servicing is a factor.
Guy

After such low mileage, even a zero serviced vehicle should not show any sign of damage.
I remember the eightys when V50/V65 TT cracked valves prior to the first service. I was working at a Guzzi dealer in austria at that time and saw this first hand. I do not hope that build quality comes down to this level again.

I like the design of the new 4 valve engine and hopefully Guzzi will get it sorted before a vehicle cracks during a motor press test. Would be a worst case for Guzzi.

 

[klaas123]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

guzzirider wrote:

From the sound of it, nobody really knows what has caused the few failures so far but they seem mainly confined to dealers that do not sell a lot of Guzzis so possibly inadequate PDI / servicing is a factor.

On my 8V tappets were adjusted by my dealer at 0km, engine failed before first service so servicing was no factor for sure.

 

[pauldaytona]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

so Klaas what about pictures?

 

[klaas123]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

Sorry Paul, the failed parts were already at the importer when I requested photo's from my dealer.

 

[klaas123]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

guzzirider wrote:

Bearing in mind that Corsa Italiana and Moto Strada are probably sell more Guzzis in the UK than anyone else, I would have expected them to have the most failures if there was a design fault.

I wouldn't trust failure rates given to me by a dealer or importer of ANY product.

 

[guzzirider]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

Well actually I do trust these guys who I have known, and done business with for many years.

I don't think anyone can say servicing is not a factor- how do we know these bikes have been serviced properly? Who knows?

At the end of the day, until we get the definitive answer on the cause of these problems, everything we discuss here is just speculation.

Guy

 

[klaas123]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

guzzirider wrote:

I don't think anyone can say servicing is not a factor- how do we know these bikes have been serviced properly? Who knows?

Nobody said that, in my case it's impossible though.
Also it may be a factor in some cases but It's not likely to be the sole cause of early 8V failure.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

Look, I really don't know how much longer this can be flogged to death?

1.) There are MANY 8V motors out there that are doing just fine. If it was a DESIGN issue then they'd all be failing. They aren't

2.) What is failing is the cam and tappets. Failed units have been analysed by a proffessional metalurgist using a hardness testing machine and it was found that the failed tappet was woefully soft and not up to the task.

3.) When a tappet fails it will happen very quickly after the initial hardened coating on the tappet is breached. The interior of the tappet will still be a lot softer than even an inadequately hardened exterior. The exterior won't fail at once neccessarily but once it does failure will be rapid AND NOISY.

4.) This problem is NOT universal and although the tappets appear to have been re-designed, (It sounds to me, but I haven't seen one, only had one described to me, that they may now be two part with a hardened foot, this though is conjecture.). The failures are usually happening between 2,000Km and 5,000Km but there are obviously exceptions either way.

5.) The factory is aware of the problem and is addressing it on a case by case basis.

Klaas, since your bike failed so early and was apparently silent before it happened I have to wonder if yours was affected by this problem or something else. You mentioned that it lost power on one cylinder? By this do you mean that one cylinder just suddenly cut out and the other one continued to run normally? Or did the motor lock up or stop or what exactly happened? If it just stopped on one cylinder and the problem is mechanical rather than electrical it sounds more as if something has caused the cam timing to change suddenly, the sprocket nut coming loose and shearing the locator dowel or something, and the valves getting bent. The failure you describe with no unusual noise certainly doesn't sound like cam/tappet failure but of course without seeing what has happened it is really impossible to make any kind of realistic diagnosis.

As I've stated before, more so than the pushrod models, (Although cam and tappet failures in those seem to have increased and be directly related to oil.) the Nuovo Hi-Cams are more likely to benefit from a good quality Ester based fully synthetic oil. Is it *vital*? Who can tell for sure, but the added protection it offers, especially if you hunt down one with an SG rating, is certainly not going to hurt. The days of being able to use any old Yak Fat are, alas, gone.

Pete

 

[RJVB]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

:silly: good for the Yaks ... and they can be ridden, too! :silly:

 

[klaas123]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

pete roper wrote:

Klaas, since your bike failed so early and was apparently silent before it happened I have to wonder if yours was affected by this problem or something else. You mentioned that it lost power on one cylinder? By this do you mean that one cylinder just suddenly cut out and the other one continued to run normally? Or did the motor lock up or stop or what exactly happened? If it just stopped on one cylinder and the problem is mechanical rather than electrical it sounds more as if something has caused the cam timing to change suddenly, the sprocket nut coming loose and shearing the locator dowel or something, and the valves getting bent. The failure you describe with no unusual noise certainly doesn't sound like cam/tappet failure but of course without seeing what has happened it is really impossible to make any kind of realistic diagnosis.

Yes Pete, during acceleration out of a town (at approx. 4000 rpm) I suddenly lost all power on one cylinder. It had been running fine for 150km that day in december last year.
I had taken the cat & db killer out of my Quat-D that day which resulted in (too) much noise so maybe I missed something (was also wearing a tight integral helmet with visor closed, it was very cold).
When I stopped the bike alongside the road (running on one cylinder) I heard some strange mettalic sounds and killed the engine immediatly.
Some part(s) failed in the valve-train (I assume a tappet) according to my dealer, no bent valves. I have not seen the damage myself as I don't live near my dealer but the case is under investigation by the importer/Guzzi.
Max rpm I drove with the bike was 5000rpm as I was still running in the bike (700km).

 

[klaas123]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

pete roper wrote:

Look, I really don't know how much longer this can be flogged to death?

Untill it's solved I assume?

 

[Penis Rotor]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

klaas123 wrote:

pete roper wrote:

Look, I really don't know how much longer this can be flogged to death?

Untill it's solved I assume?

(Sigh) Bikes in the USA don't appear to be failing. The cause has been established for the failures and the tappets which were the problem have been redesigned and remanufactured. How much more *solved* do you want?

Yes its very unfortunate that it happened at all but it has obviously been dealt with. The ball is now back in your court, either wait for the bike to be returned which hopefully will be done quickly and go off and enjoy it or, if you now feel you can't trust the machine? sell it and move on.

Pete

 

[some_finn]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

pete roper wrote:

Look, I really don't know how much longer this can be flogged to death?

I'll lend a hand in case people are getting tired

Until the issue/problem/feature is clearly identified and resolved/corrected/embraced by the manufacturer, endless speculation most likely will continue... This is teh interwebs, after all...

I'm considering a Norge, so even I am eagerly awaiting to hear when the 8V version is available, and if it comes with "officially improved" valve bits or "will be addressed on a case to case basis if necessary" ones :huh:
Of course if only the older engine model is available, much less pondering for me

 

[klaas123]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

pete roper wrote:

klaas123 wrote:

pete roper wrote:

Look, I really don't know how much longer this can be flogged to death?

Untill it's solved I assume?

(Sigh) Bikes in the USA don't appear to be failing. The cause has been established for the failures and the tappets which were the problem have been redesigned and remanufactured. How much more *solved* do you want?

Yes its very unfortunate that it happened at all but it has obviously been dealt with. The ball is now back in your court, either wait for the bike to be returned which hopefully will be done quickly and go off and enjoy it or, if you now feel you can't trust the machine? sell it and move on.

Pete

And how many bikes were sold in the USA, 6 or 12?
What do you know for sure about redesigned tappets and them solving the problem?

My bike is "under investigation" which may be a good thing but if the problem was solved they could simply replace the failed parts and return the bike to me.

Keeping or selling my bike has nothing to do with this discussion Pete, this is a Guzzi forum where we discuss this problem in 2 threads, both started by yourself mind you. What's wrong with that?

 

[RJVB]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

Klaas, I don't think Pete started either thread with the idea of chewing endlessly on the subject in the absence of new data (and as a reminder, the plural of anecdote is not data).

If your bike is under investigation, it may indeed be because her failure was atypical, that this was recognised, and that whatever is currently accepted as the tentative solution is being (re)evaluated in light of what happened to your bike.

some_finn: the 2V engine is more than adequate for the Norge. I'd even say that in order to take advantage of the gains the 8V engine offers, you'd probably have to invest in suspension upgrades like the ones Todd offers. It is almost certain that an 8V Norge will be released at some point, but it might still be a long time from hitting shops near you. I'd not (be able to) wait for that myself

 

[Skeeve]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

pete roper wrote:

Look, I really don't know how much longer this can be flogged to death?

1.) There are MANY 8V motors out there that are doing just fine. If it was a DESIGN issue then they'd all be failing. They aren't

2.) What is failing is the cam and tappets. Failed units have been analysed by a proffessional metalurgist using a hardness testing machine and it was found that the failed tappet was woefully soft and not up to the task.
...

As I've stated before, more so than the pushrod models, (Although cam and tappet failures in those seem to have increased and be directly related to oil.) the Nuovo Hi-Cams are more likely to benefit from a good quality Ester based fully synthetic oil. Is it *vital*? Who can tell for sure, but the added protection it offers, especially if you hunt down one with an SG rating, is certainly not going to hurt. The days of being able to use any old Yak Fat are, alas, gone.

Pete

Well, we can certainly manage to flog this one longer: think about the 22? pages on the merits of your sloppage sheet over @ v11lm.com?

1) Design...
&
Oil...

Maybe it is time for Guzzi to face up to the reality that the flat tappet"s days are over (Sorry for the quote instead of an apostrophe there, the forum software is barfing & keeps putting me in "Quick Find" mode when I hit the apos. key... ) and move on to roller lifters like the automotive industry has been forced to do with the verdammt "friction modified" oils that have had all the high pressure additives removed?

Not that I"m anti-flat tappet: with the right oils they work just fine, but as Euro(insert # increment here) encroaches, the cat converters on bikes are going to be more & more scrutinized, and our freedoms ever more eroded with EPA-mandated annual smog testing, etc., which will in turn eliminate the use of quality oils from motorcycles here in the States too.

 

[Gary]

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

Still cant count the number of actual stelvio owners on thei page, is it 6..... or 7. Seems to many Guzzi lovers are jumping on the band wagon. My Guzzi was fixed ok. Had the recall notice too. The prob was with the cam follower not the cam. THE CAM IS NOT BEING REPLACED UNDER WARRENTY FOR 0 MILES BIKES. That means the cam is ok.

Why dont we put a line under this thread, Guzzi has owned up, end of.............

Summers here chaps