Air cooled engines

[sandy]

I keep hearing that air cooled engines are going to find it pretty much impossible to comply with ever more stringent emissions / noise regs as the years go on.
For most manufacturers I don't suppose that matters as nearly all have ditched large capacity air cooled engines now but what about Harley, BMW (Twins) and Moto Guzzi.
I did read that BMW have a liquid cooled twin just about ready for production.
My local Harley dealer tells me that it's a worrying prospect, as the V Rod, whilst it sells in relatively small numbers, has not been embraced by the purists because it's liquid cooled.
Should we be concerned about Moto Guzzi ?

 

[ghezzi]

Anything air cooled that currently passes whatever Euro/California/Bullshit emission laws is Ok with me.
If Guzzi change to water cooling in the future, I'll be one of the die hard ol'farts on me old skool dunga.

My Bellagio may currently run hotter than older models, but I will soon add PC-5 etc to remedy that.
At 54 and after owning 40 odd bikes, I'll be fairly happy to ride this one till the death (of me), after that, who cares.

If I live long enough, my bike will eventually be classified as a classic/vintage/veteran etc ..............just like me.

 

[Ad B]

Hi,
I hope I can ride my Griso long enough, till my end time of motorbiking...
I have my Harley for nearly 20 years now, my Griso for one. :blink:
And I'm nearly 53 years YOUNG (!).
53 + 19 =... inch:
Maybe the Griso will last a tiny bit longer...
Oké, I'm satisfied with that outcome, by that time I can drive myself to the cementary... :mrgreen:

I'll keep my head and cylinders in the air!
Ride on.

Ad B

 

[Averb]

I have to say that I really don't see what the big deal is about air vs liquid cooling. I currently own 2 V twin shaft drive bikes, one air cooled and one liquid cooled. There are a lot of major differences between the two bikes but I have never spent any time comparing the two based their cooling systems

Steve

 

[sandy]

I have to say that I really don't see what the big deal is about air vs liquid cooling. I currently own 2 V twin shaft drive bikes, one air cooled and one liquid cooled. There are a lot of major differences between the two bikes but I have never spent any time comparing the two based their cooling systems

Steve

Steve I think you missed the point.
I don't care particularly either, but the fact is that air cooled engines are facing a major shake up in the context of ever more stringent noise and emissions regs.
Would you be OK with a water cooled Guzzi.
I suppose that's what I'm asking.

 

[ghezzi]

The threat of "killing off" the air cooled engine for the reasons you've mentioned has been around for a long time.
Much the same as the old smoky 2 stroke, but technology evolves. There are now manufacturers (in boat and off road arenas) who have gone back to 2 strokes, using direct injection etc that more than qualify for Euro 5 standards.
They produce enormous torque such that makes equivalent sized 4 strokes look like aneamic gutless screamers.

My point is, who knows where technology will take us.
I love the Guzzi engine in its current 2V form with all its ancient and simple methodology, if they go high tech, watercooled, in-line, multi-cylinder whatevers I will observe from a distance. But with Mandelo Marrow in my bones I'm very satisfied admiring my Bellagio as created, with a few personal enhancements

 

[sandy]

The threat of "killing off" the air cooled engine for the reasons you've mentioned has been around for a long time.

Indeed, and lets face it, the air cooled engine is now pretty much "killed off" so the threats have not been hollow.
Only Harley, Triumph Guzzi hold onto them.
Where have all the Japanese air cooled twins and fours gone ?
Even BMW have now conceded and introduced a liquid cooled flat twin.

http://www.allaboutbikes.com/feature-ar ... -published

 

[leafman60]

I do not want a water-cooled update. The radiators are ugly and cumbersome and there is more complexity.

I prefer clean, classic simplicity.

Ive heard this "have to convert water due to emissions regs" for 25 years.

 

[sandy]

Ive heard this "have to convert water due to emissions regs" for 25 years.

Yes and if you divert your attention away from Guzzi's for just a second you'll see that it has happened.
Air cooled engines have more or less gone.
Only the manufacturers that have a tradition of building them hold onto them.
Do you think BMW are water cooling their flat twins for a bit of a laugh ?
It's expensive developing a liquid cooled engine, and they are much more expensive to produce than the air cooled equivalent.
It's got to happen.
Air cooled engines simply will not be able to meet the criteria.
Remember that in terms of emissions, the world has a very different attitude to the one it had 25 years ago, which is why, I guess, Moto Guzzi are preparing themselves.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/newsa ... index.html

 

[Mark111]

Who cares?
I'm happy with my air/oil cooled engine and will keep it for the long term but who knows what might capture my interest in future years.
If they build a water cooled engine and you don't like it, don't buy it.
Everyone can make their own decision if and when they put one in to production, I will wait until the future technology arrives and evaluate it on it's merits before I make any decisions.

Mark

 

[afulldeck]

I have to say that I really don't see what the big deal is about air vs liquid cooling. I currently own 2 V twin shaft drive bikes, one air cooled and one liquid cooled. There are a lot of major differences between the two bikes but I have never spent any time comparing the two based their cooling systems

Steve

Steve I think you missed the point.
I don't care particularly either, but the fact is that air cooled engines are facing a major shake up in the context of ever more stringent noise and emissions regs.
Would you be OK with a water cooled Guzzi.
I suppose that's what I'm asking.

Well, for me its a non-issue. I would buy guzzi air cooled or water cooled. Having both water cooled and air cooled bikes now, the future of a possible water cooled guzzi doesn't intimidate me. Who knows maybe a water cooled guzzi will turn out to be as reliable as air-cooled. Maybe even better.....

 

[Rafael]

If water cooling is inevitable, I'm more interested in what happens with HD than with MG. HD seems to be consumer design driven; MG is design principle based. We just happen to agree (mostly) with MG design principles. Water cooling is not the VRod's only issue, at least with me, the Road King is beautiful whereas the Vrod looks like is suited to a cartoon rat. I'm with Mark, come what may, que sera sera! My SP is 28 years old and it took me to Colorado a couple of years back, so as long as I can get parts, my Breva should serve me till I ride no more. Dennis V. has about 1/2 million miles on his eldo!

 

[afulldeck]

I find it interesting that some folks seem to have a visceral fear of water-cooled engines and I am not sure I understand why. Is it simply because water-cooling is slightly more complicated or is there some else going on?

 

[Tom]

Moto Guzzi is years ahead of getting public acceptance of FI bikes than HD. FI has helped MG to meet the more stringent emissions controls. Liquid cooling may take awhile for MG to accept. There might be more work to further the air cooling on MG engines like Buell and BMW. Maybe fans or bigger better oil coolers.

 

[sign216]

I find it interesting that some folks seem to have a visceral fear of water-cooled engines and I am not sure I understand why. Is it simply because water-cooling is slightly more complicated or is there some else going on?

Fulldeck, for me water cooling is just added complexity. More maintenance and things to go wrong. Part of motorcycling is a return to simplicity, and I choose bikes that an owner can work on with regular hand tools.

For this reason I stopped buying BMWs. The Guzzi smallblock is a terrific example of good, basic bike engineering without all the whiz-bank rocket technology. I know the rocket science makes modern bikes go faster and all, but I just don't need it.

Joe

 

[sandy]

The Guzzi smallblock is a terrific example of good, basic bike engineering without all the whiz-bank rocket technology.

Water cooling, whizz bang technology ? :shock: :lol:

Oh I really don't think water cooling is complex enough to stop people working on their bikes.

A prime example of what a Guzzi liquid cooled engine could be like is best exemplified in the Honda CX500 / 650

I've owned a few of these over the years and there was nothing I couldn't work on myself.

Yes it was an ugly old pig but that old tech push rod engine was simplicity itself to work on despite being water cooled, and even today is considered to be one of the best engines to have ever come out of Japan.

 

[afulldeck]

The Guzzi smallblock is a terrific example of good, basic bike engineering without all the whiz-bank rocket technology.

Water cooling, whizz bang technology ? :shock: :lol:

Oh I really don't think water cooling is complex enough to stop people working on their bikes.

A prime example of what a Guzzi liquid cooled engine could be like is best exemplified in the Honda CX500 / 650

I've owned a few of these over the years and there was nothing I couldn't work on myself.

Yes it was an ugly old pig but that old tech push rod engine was simplicity itself to work on despite being water cooled, and even today is considered to be one of the best engines to have ever come out of Japan.

Agreed. Water cooling hardly makes the bike complex. Just wait until you have to replace the clutch in your guzzi....now that is a job an a half.... :lol:

 

[ghezzi]

afuldeck, I luv ya signature!
I've also owned 3 ugly ducklings
Basically, I'm not against water cooling as my car loves it, but it also stopped last weekend due to a split hose.

What I am in love with is the engine, my first Guzzi was a MKIII Le Mans, and I have already replaced the Bellagio tappet covers with early square fin examples.

Less is more, simple and basic, easy and reliable.

I tow bikes for a living, IMHO the modern day EFI bikes face a lot more reliability issues, even a battery a little low on voltage is enough to halt proceedings. Failed regulator/rectifier/stators are common place as electrical systems are overloaded and most (Jap) bikes use a battery too small for the task at hand.

Roll on technology, it keeps me employed.

Oh, and wait until you have to replace a cam chain or stator on ya CX500 :silly:

 

[sandy]

Oh I can't let you have that one.
I've ridden fuel injected bikes since the mid 90's and have not had one single issue.
Now ask me about the limping home, and the long nights, head buried in hands in tears over carb issues I've had with various bikes.
Sorry but give me efi every time,

 

[ghezzi]

Having said my bit, my Bella is EFI and so was my Cali and Hypermotard and neither did I have any issues except a Power Commander died on me way out west in the pouring rain. Unplugged and left out of play I was able to ride home, but it was a stressful time.

Sure EFI can be tuned to be sweeter, but I can't fix it, nor can I see what has gone wrong. So I'll ride my Bella till its broke, then tow and fix just like all my customers.

Lets just wait and see what MG does in the future, some of us will be excited and some of us will be dissappointed.
At the end of the day, you pays ya money and makes ya choice. For each of us it is the same;
"What price satisfaction?"