Battery dead again .... V7III

[Godfrey]

Racer's been starting just fine since I charged the battery up on Jan 28, did so just last evening. But this morning when I went to go for a ride, the battery was dead again. Hmm. Hooked up the Battery Tender, it didn't find any faults, and is charging it back up now. But a four month old battery dying like this, twice now... Hmm. To me, that means something's wrong. Batteries typically carry a 1 year warranty.

I called the dealer and made an appointment next week to replace it. They will upgrade it to an AGM type battery (half again the cold cranking amps, same dimensions, fully compatible with my charger, etc) at the same time. I'll have them check the charge rate, etc, as well while I'm there (I will do it myself too... ).

I know the Lithium batteries are theoretically superior, but they're a lot more expensive and if I can get a good battery that lasts a couple of years through the warranty, well, I'll do that first. My Battery Tender Plus is also not compatible with Lithium cells... There's another $60-100 cost.

PITA, but eh? Such it is. Motorcycle batteries have always been short lived, but four months is a bit too short.

 

[GTM®]

You might read I’ve posted often on this and mostly get ignored or people pile on to state how long their older AGM has lasted... so I’ll state it again for the record; Due to current (and increasingly more stringent) lead regulations, all lead acid & AGM batteries will continue to have a short life. Most of my new rental bike batts have lasted 2 weeks to 2 months max. They get replaced by Lith-I. I’ve jumped through the Warranty replacement hoop enough to know better. The replacements were all prepped by me out of the box, and lasted a touch longer each time. In addition to the huge CCA gains, the weight savings alone is worth the cost. It’s one of the biggest loses you can do.

 

[Godfrey]

I understand your position, Todd. And yes: I've read all the other thread on this subject here on the site already.

I've also been doing research with my friends of the past several decades, all of whom are dedicated motorcyclists and all of whom have put in up to decades of use with their motorcycles. By and large, nearly all of them are getting 2-3 years use out of a good lead acid or AGM wet cell. A few have moved to Lithium rechargeables in the past five to six years and are getting some nice gains on that, but others have had serious problems with their older bikes' charging systems and the Lithium rechargeables.

I'll let the dealer do the AGM upgrade and warranty replacement just once AND check the charging system, etc, to be certain that it is producing nominal output, etc. If the battery dies in a few months time again, I'll move to newer technology and deal with the costs of it because then the PITA factor is overwhelmed by the downtime factor. That's my plan... I'm perfectly competent to buy a battery, prep it, and install it myself. AND test the charging system, for that matter.

But I'm willing to give the dealer the chance to do the job once, if it's at no cost to me other than a few hours of my time and a nice ride there and back, just to see what I can expect out of the AGM battery for myself. I call it "a field trial for my own satisfaction."

G

(PS: I use an AGM battery in my car, which is much bigger capacity and much more stable than the itsy little things in the motorcycles. It tends to last three-four years, max. I have it on my service calendar as a replacement item every two and half years. I haven't swapped to a Lithium in the car because others with the same car and charging system have reported a wide range of issues, inconsistencies, etc. And it's too darn expensive to experiment with the car-sized battery and the procedure to prep and install it, which I don't have the equipment to do myself. Such it is...)

 

[john zibell]

Guzzi put out a service bulletin on prepping batteries to their dealers some time ago. If a battery is not prepped correctly, it will have a very short life. Many dealers and battery stores do not take the time to do the preparation correctly. For that reason I only purchase batteries that I have to activate for myself and others that want an AGM battery. So far I'm getting multiple years on batteries that I have prepared.

 

[Godfrey]

What does that preparation consist of, John? I'm now very curious. Thanks!

 

[Brian UK]

The battery is supplied dry with acid. You fill the battery. You must then leave the battery for at least 12 hours before fitting, preferably longer. Failure to do this will result in the battery failing prematurely.

Have you seen the video of the Tesla which hit a barrier and caught fire. Firemen had to wear breathing apparatus because of the large quantity of very toxic fumes released. It also wasn't safe to recover for at least a day as more fires were likely to start. And you think Lithium is better than lead acid?

 

[Raven]

At least lithium can be used to make garage meth!

 

[Vagrant]

Just slightly off the MC subject but, I just traded my 2010 Tundra I bought new in Dec of 09. It only had 77000 miles and the original battery was still starting it instantly. For those that will ask, I bought another new one just like it.
My boat has one of those batteries that looks like six round old fashioned 1 1/2 volt put together. Opti something I think. It was put into service in 2004 and made in 2003. still starting the 60 HP four stroke but I expect it to go any day now.
Moral is it is worth buying the very best on the front side and I doubt either of these were serviced right buy the selling dealer.

 

[john zibell]

The battery is supplied dry with acid. You fill the battery. You must then leave the battery for at least 12 hours before fitting, preferably longer. Failure to do this will result in the battery failing prematurely.

Have you seen the video of the Tesla which hit a barrier and caught fire. Firemen had to wear breathing apparatus because of the large quantity of very toxic fumes released. It also wasn't safe to recover for at least a day as more fires were likely to start. And you think Lithium is better than lead acid?

The Guzzi bulletin stated to let the battery sit 3 hours. I go for 6 to 12 like Brian. I don't even seal the battery until after I charge the it. I just roll up a paper towel and place it over the open cells to catch any acid that may eject while charging, allow proper venting, and to prevent anything from falling into the cell.

 

[GTM®]

Seems I am again being ignored again on the facts I’m trying to state. So my last post on it.
I have bought twelve (12) new bikes in the last ~4 years for my rental fleet, and have dealt with more than twice that in stock Yuasa AGM warranty batteries in as many years, on the fleet bikes alone. All but one warranty replacements were put into service by me at the 12-hour, sitting before charging routine. Many failed again in weeks, the one not by me failed in days. You will have better luck in buying a Yuasa factory prepped version it seems.
Additionally I have a full time shop where we deal with this daily, and I’ve handled ~50+ newer customer bikes wth this issue in the last few years.
Facts: OLDER AGM BATTERIES HAVE LASTED 5-10 YEARS IN THE PAST. THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE. THE MOST YOU WILL LIKELY SEE IN A NEW (PROPERLY PUT INTO SERVICE) AGM IS 2-3 YEARS MAX.
I am on year six (6) with my AG Lithium on my Stelvio (transferred over from my ‘09 to my ‘13) , and I’ve never, EVER, put a charger to it. However, I do ride it a few times/week, but it has sat 2-3 months untouched on my health related downtimes. Take from this whatever you’d like.

 

[Godfrey]

The battery is supplied dry with acid. You fill the battery. You must then leave the battery for at least 12 hours before fitting, preferably longer. Failure to do this will result in the battery failing prematurely. ...

The Guzzi bulletin stated to let the battery sit 3 hours. I go for 6 to 12 like Brian. I don't even seal the battery until after I charge the it. I just roll up a paper towel and place it over the open cells to catch any acid that may eject while charging, allow proper venting, and to prevent anything from falling into the cell.

In other words, a reminder to dealers to follow the battery manufacturers' battery setup and prep recommendations. That's what I've always done, since 1975 or before, when I had to replace a battery in a car or motorcycle. When I worked the parts department at a Honda dealership (1976ish to 1979ish), I had a portion of the part room set up for battery prep. All of the commonly used batteries were staged through filling, standing, and charging stations. We'd keep two/three of the popular ones ready to go with a maintenance charge every few days (this was the days before things like logic controlled battery tenders) until sold. At that time, all the other dealers did similarly—because this way you got fewer complaints and fewer returns by the customers.

I guess that practice got lost over the years. How sad!

Seems I am again being ignored again on the facts I’m trying to state. ...

I hear ya, Todd. I'll likely switch to a lithium cell when the battery that goes in this time goes belly up. I just don't want to spend the extra money right now ($0 to $200 or so) and want to see what the dealer can provide me. It's also a way to get to know my dealer's service guys better.

A choice. Not an action taken in ignorance.

thanks all!
G

 

[GuzziMoto]

Seems I am again being ignored again on the facts I’m trying to state. So my last post on it.
I have bought twelve (12) new bikes in the last ~4 years for my rental fleet, and have dealt with more than twice that in stock Yuasa AGM warranty batteries in as many years, on the fleet bikes alone. All but one warrany replacements were put into service by me at the 12-hour, sitting before charging, routine. Many failed again in weeks, the one not by me failed in days. You will have better luck in buying a Yuasa factory prepped version it seems.
Additionally I have a full time shop where we deal with this daily, and I’ve handled ~50+ newer customer bikes wth this issue in the last few years.
Facts: OLDER AGM BATTERIES HAVE LASTED 5-10 YEARS IN THE PAST. THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE. THE MOST YOU WILL LIKELY SEE IN A NEW (PROPERLY PUT INTO SERVICE) AGM IS 2-3 YEARS MAX.
I am on year six (6) on my Stelvio (transferred over from my ‘09 to my ‘13) with my AG Lithium, and I’ve never, EVER, put a charger to it. However, I do ride it a few times/week, but it has sat 2-3 months untouched on my health related downtimes. Take from this whatever you’d like.

Todd, no one is ignoring you. But your "facts" don't agree with my own personal experience or, apparently, other peoples own personal experience. If you would like to back up your facts with something, say, links to the actual regulations you claim reduce the amount of lead you can put in a battery, I would be happy to read that. I have looked for such regulations and could not find any.
I still use AGM batteries and I still get good life out of them, I am not completely adverse to Lithium batteries, but I have yet to personally have a lithium battery out last an AGM battery.
No offence intended Todd. Just noting that your personal experiences and my personal experiences do not agree.

 

[GTM®]

No offence intended Todd. Just noting that your personal experiences nad my personal experiences do not agree.

Ok. On a thread where Godfrey's 2017 new V7 battery has failed, and ignoring all of the hard data counts I posted above, curious to know if you’ve bought new AGMs in the last few years?
I will talk to my engineer friend that worked with AG batts, who told me of such info, and post if he’ll show me such data.

 

[GuzziMoto]

Ok. On a thread where Godfrey's 2017 new V7 battery has failed has failed, and ignoring all of the hard data counts I posted above, curious to know if you’ve bought new AGMs in the last few years?
I will talk to my engineer friend that worked with AG batts, who told me of such info, and post if he’ll show me such data.

Yes, I have bought a few AGM batteries in the last few years. No issues yet. I also know that if you start up an AGM battery improperly it will have a remarkably short life, that is why Guzzi even put out a service bulletin on it. Perhaps there is more going on that that. Perhaps Guzzi is using crappy batteries. I don't know. All my recent AGM battery purchases have been decent quality batteries and they have lasted so far. They certainly have not failed in the short time described.
On a side note, I will be buying a new AGM battery for our Jeep in the near future. It has not failed yet, but the factory uses such low quality batteries that they tend to fail withing 3 years. But quality aftermarket replacements don't seem to suffer the same short life span.

 

[canuck1969]

The Guzzi bulletin stated to let the battery sit 3 hours. I go for 6 to 12 like Brian. I don't even seal the battery until after I charge the it. I just roll up a paper towel and place it over the open cells to catch any acid that may eject while charging, allow proper venting, and to prevent anything from falling into the cell.

John, you are correct, do not seal the battery until after it is charged so it can vent the gases that are liberated when the coating on the glass mat dissolves. You can just place the cover loosely on the openings. This allows it to vent the gases but also reduce the amount of liquid that could evaporate during initial charging.

The instructions that come with the battery are wrong compared to what is on their website. Instructions in the box say to seal it before you charge, but every instruction I have seen for the Yuasa batteries online say to seal it after charging. This includes the TSB that Guzzi put out on how to properly prep a battery. Pour the electrolyte in, leave it overnight so it fully absorbs, loosely place the cover on the cells, charge it and then seal it.

Have never had issues with AGM over the years (including those purchased in the last 3 years) and they still continue to perform for what I need. That included bottle supplied and factory activated.

 

[Brian UK]

Ok. On a thread where Godfrey's 2017 new V7 battery has failed,

But we don't know if his new AGM battery was commissioned properly by the dealer who fitted it.

 

[Godfrey]

Ok. On a thread where Godfrey's 2017 new V7 battery has failed,...

But we don't know if his new AGM battery was commissioned properly by the dealer who fitted it.

Boys, boys ... There's no reason to debate this so strenuously. I'm not that concerned one way or the other.

The battery that failed was the OEM Yuasa YTX14-BS, a standard lead-acid wet cell type battery.

For the record: I bought the bike new on October 9. Then it sat from Oct 31 to Nov 5 while I was in Palm Springs and points south. Then it sat from Nov 19 to 28 while I was away on my Thanksgiving Texas trip. Then it sat from Dec 20 to January 28 while I was away in Ireland and the Isle of Man on my holidays excursion, and returned home/caught pneumonia/recovered ... the battery had worked flawlessly until I went to start the bike on 28JAN, when it was found dead. I charged it overnight using a Battery Tender Plus unit. It seemed to revive perfectly and has provided flawless service (and the bike has been ridden almost every day since) until yesterday (07FEB) when it was too weak to start the bike once more.

I called the dealer and set up an appointment for next Thursday to change it out for the AGM version under warranty (YTX14H-BS or equivalent) after I put the battery on the Battery Tender Plus again. I don't know for a fact, but I believe the dealer has pulled a battery out and is prepping it for me. After the battery showed fully charged on the BTP once more, I disconnected it and checked static voltage. It seemed a little lower than I've seen with other batteries right off the BTP in the past, about 12.8V (a good 12V lead-acid battery straight off the charger will normally show between 12.9 and 13.2 V in my experience, settling down to just slightly greater than 12.7V after 12 hours or so). I tested the static voltage again a few minutes ago: it's about 12.5V, indicating to me that there's some cell damage.

Last night after being charged, I checked starting voltage drop (10.0V) and charging voltage generated by the motorcycle alternator (14.1-14.5V). That voltage drop, on a cool evening just after being charged, seems a little much; the charge voltage seems a little high too. These both indicate to me that there is some damage in this battery: one or more cells are no longer operating within spec.

I feel that a battery this young that has been regularly used, aside from the periods of sitting, shouldn't be running into trouble like this. Even if sitting from 20DEC to 28JAN was a bit of a long stint idle, charging it up should have restored it and it should be working fine now. That's why I'm filing the warranty claim, and taking advantage of the dealer's offer to upgrade it to a better quality, higher spec replacement as part of servicing that warranty claim.

I think it's worth a shot, and if they properly prep the new AGM battery, I expect it to serve for 2-3 years minimum, INCLUDING sitting for a few weeks now and then while I'm away on trips. Whether it does or not is what this "experiment" is attempting to discover.

G

 

[GTM®]

There's no reason to debate this so strenuously

No debate. Just facts. I’ve handled well over 75 batteries in the last 4 years. The data was for you.
I just need to stop posting.

 

[Godfrey]

Thanks!

 

[Brian UK]

Wet cell LA batteries do not like deep cycling, as in deep discharge, so probably the original one was damaged when left for that month.
I have recovered batteries which have failed in this way, but never found them to last that long afterwards.
Obviously you were not expecting to leave the bike for that long, but if you are expecting to, always best to disconnect it.