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Bellagio K&N filters & Boosterplug / power commander

Discussion in 'Griso-Bella Chat & Tech' started by Calijackalbob, Oct 25, 2015.

  1. Calijackalbob

    Calijackalbob Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Hi guys.
    I just fitted K&N pod filters to my Bellagio, removed the airbox, ( it's getting the cafe racer treatment, going to be sporting a V7 tank and seat, so the airbox had to go)
    .......... anyway, It now sounds awesome. Love the induction roar. It's a tiny bit more hesitant to start, but otherwise runs beautifully. Can't tell if it's got more power or not, but sure sounds faster.
    Being concerned about the possibility of running lean and burning valves, I'm looking into getting a "Boosterplug" ...... an alternative to a Power Commander. Wondering if anyone has tried one and how it affects the running of the engine. Is it worth it? The Bellagio is, as I said, running fine with the K&Ns and stock exhaust.
    As I understand it, the booster plug / power commander just gives the ECU an underestimate of the ambient temperature, thus prompting the ECU to deliver a richer fuel to air mix.
    The boosterplug is cheaper than the PC. Seems to do the same thing with less complications. Anyone used one? Any testimonials, advice for or against?
    Advice appreciated. Peter.
     
  2. GT-Rx®

    GT-Rx® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Peter, significant changes to the intake or exhaust require more then a sensor fooler, as the stock narrow band 02-sensor is nothing but a simple switch to alert the ECU if things are out of range. The sensor foolers simply tell the ECU to richen the mixture based on preset (stock) parameters. I *highly* recommend adding either a Power Commander, or dyno-built ECU flash or preferably both; https://www.guzzitech.com/store/product/pc-vat200gt-rx-5am-ecu-flash/ -- it's a handful of money, but well proven to do the job incredibly well. A full time, dynamic system that revises fueling on the go. I've sent a few of these to Bellagio owners around the globe. Questions? Ping me direct email; Todd at GuzziTech.com
     
  3. Calijackalbob

    Calijackalbob Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    hmmm,................. is keeping stock exhaust and switching to K&N pod filters really a significant change?

    Not trying to be rude, but the link you gave me for the Power Commander, says "Fits: ALL Modern CARC (not Bellagio) Big Block Guzzi: 5AM ECU (as shown below, ECU not included)."

    is this forum sponsored by Dynojet?
     
  4. GT-Rx®

    GT-Rx® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Yes, pod filters are a huge change. The kit will fit the Bellagio, I'll edit that on the Store. I've been working with Dynojet on Guzzi F.I. since 2001. They don't sponsor the website no, but I use and sell their products here because they work amazingly well, despite what you may read elsewhere online. It's a simple tool, when used properly, gives incredible throttle response and power... As well documented here in other sections.
     
  5. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    I would say pods are a bigger change than swapping mufflers. It would be more like if you replaced the exhaust systme with a completely different design.
    The intake system has as much affect as the exhaust system. And going from an airbox to individual pod filters can dramatically change flow at different rpms.
    I ran pods and a stock pipe on an FZR400 a long time ago. I never could get it to run quite right. It was always a case of where it did not run right. I could move that dead spot around, but I could not get ride of it. I suspect that with FI and a proper tool for adjusting the FI you could get it to run pretty good. It may even make more power in certain rpm ranges, but the overall power output is likely to be lower.
     
  6. Calijackalbob

    Calijackalbob Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Thanks for your input guys. Any other advice or opinions from others is also welcome.
     
  7. Calijackalbob

    Calijackalbob Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    I've heard a lot of negative talk about fitting pod filters to bikes, (Often as not coming from those who haven't done it themselves.) is there anyone out there who has put pod filters on and had any issues with them?
    I'm using K&N pods with cotton and wire filtration, stock exhaust on my Bellagio and no other fueling mods.
    My bike is running perfectly, albeit a tiny bit more hesitant to start, but once it's warm it runs beautifully. I am suspicious about the K&N pod filter bashing that I hear, from people that have never used them, who just quote a friend of a friend that "had issues."

    Please reply stating your bike model, whether it's injected or carbuerated, whether you fiddled with mixtures, fuel mapping or kept it stock, whether you are using after market pipes or any other mods.

    advice appreciated.

    [​IMG]

    Bellagio V940 Cafe Racer in Evolution.
     
  8. Calijackalbob

    Calijackalbob Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Did your FZR have any fiddles to the jets, carbs, ignition system, any other reason why you "could not get it to run quite right"
    How old was it, how many miles on the engine? Was it thrashed like fuck, worn out brand new, what?
    Tell us more. There could be a hundred reasons you "could not get it to run quite right" Were the pod filters the only possible reason, or what?
    Thanks for answering. I'm sure lots of people will be interested.
     
  9. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    As mentioned, I have out pods on more than a few bikes.
    The FZR400 I put pods on was a race bike and it seemed to work well enough on the track. It had other things done to it, including a total loss ignition system and full jetting mods. When I switched it back to street duty that is when I realized it had a huge flat spot. I just never ran the rpms in that range on the track so it did not show up. I could adjust the jetting and move the flat spot around, but I could not get rid of it. Except by putting the stock airbox back on, which made the flat spot go away. The mileage, state, and other aspects of the motor are somewhat irrelevant as putting the stock airbox on it made the flat spot go away.
    I also have pods on my Daytona, and have put them on other bikes as well. The Daytona did not have quite as well designed an airbox as the later Guzzi's, but even the Daytona loses some power with the pods. The main reason it runs pods is that it was like that when I got it. But it is also somewhat customized and I could not fit the stock airbox back on it even if I wanted to.
    In general, when bikes had airboxes that were not well designed pods often could provide an improvement in airflow (and thus power). But as airbox design got better the bar was raised, and it is unlikely nowadays that a set of pod filters will out perform a well designed airbox. Even modern racebikes now use airboxes. The large pocket of still air they provide allows the engine to make more power than pod filters. Replacing the filter with one that flows better, and sometimes modifying the airbox to improve airflow into it, are usually all that is required to get the most out of a modern engine. Removing the stock airbox altogether and putting on pods is typically a step in the wrong direction with modern engine design.
     
  10. Calijackalbob

    Calijackalbob Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    So many people bagging pod filters and Power Boosters.............................
    Not convinced. Thought I'd find out for myself.
    As Fleetwood Mac said, ..... "You can go your own way"
    So I did.

    I Got K&N's on my Bellagio 940...... the "tiny bit more hesitant to start," when I first fitted them has disappeared. Maybe it likes the Booster Plug I fitted? Maybe it was just a bad batch of petrol? Dunno.
    Runs great, no appreciable difference in power with the booster plug, but it's running beautifully with the K&N pod filters.
    Sounds faster with the pod filters, can't tell if it actually goes faster, but it's worth it for the induction noise alone !

    Did a ride a week or so back with some speed demons in Malaysia. The Bellagio managed 210kmh, with room to go faster, but I had to slow down for traffic. Guzzi specs say the Bellagio's top speed is 198kmh. Draw your own conclusions.

    Maybe bad running is an issue fitting pod filters to a carbuerated bike, but not so much an injected bike?

    After all doesn't the ECU measure air intake temperature, exhaust gasses etc and adjust fuel and air mixture to suit?

    I'm so happy with the K&N's on the Bellagio I just put a set on my Jackal. When It's back from the painters and I've ridden it around a bit, I'll let you know how it goes.
     
  11. Keith Broughton

    Keith Broughton Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Guzzi Moto makes some very good points.
    I have worked on old Honda CB 750 asnd 550 4s and got better overall tuning results with the stock airbox.
    If pods worked so well, why did the manufacturer not use them in the first place? Would be cheaper and easier so there must be a reason.
    In race engine applications, the power is usually in a fairly narrow RPM band and "driveability" is not a concern.
    A street bike is a different story.
    That said, the induction sound of an open intake is sweeeeeet :)
     
  12. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Pods don't know if the bike is carburated or injected. They are about airflow into the motor. That airflow into the motor is better with a good airbox then it is with pods. More air into the motor allows the motor to make more power. The airflow into the motor is more consistent with a good airbox then it is with pods. More consistent airflow into the motor allows the motor to make a better, smoother, spread of power. Pods can make more power in certain parts of the rpm range. But if you look at the spread of power, the total amount of power across the rpm range, you will find that pods make less power than an airbox.
    Pods look and sound cool. I totally get why someone would want them. They look good, especially on a Guzzi. And they do sound great, which makes the bike FEEL faster. But subject, "seat of the pants" impressions mean nothing in a discussion about how things work. If your only concern is how it "feels" and "looks", and you like the way it feels and looks with pods, fine. Say that and go with that. But I would avoid trying to make the argument that pods actually improve performance unless you have facts to back it up. How it feels does not really enter into it.
     
  13. GT-Rx®

    GT-Rx® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    No. Common ignorance and misconception across the board. Plenty of data here on the site to explain it.
     
  14. ghezzi

    ghezzi High Miler GT Contributor

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    Way back in the archives, Todd had lots of dyno sheets comparing all sorts of performance mods on his Jackal V11 Beast
    Pods versus stock arbox (lid removed) with K&N.
    If I remember correctly ................there was a 1 hp advantage to the pods in the top end, but the air box had the advantage of 4 or 5 hp and ft lbs of torque in the midrange.

    I too have a Bellagio with V7 tank, but I chose to have a new tunnel created so I could keep the stock air box (lid removed).
    Horses for courses mate, yours looks better ..................
     
  15. Bulldog9

    Bulldog9 Tuned and Synch'ed

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    To the OP Calijackabob, it's common knowledge that removing stock air box, and adding K&N/gauze or oiled foam or pods or a more open exhaust requires rejetting of carbs or an adjusted fuel map. Why? The increased airflow in and out of the motor. Can you go without? sure, you can go without, but at the risk of a lean condition, running hot, burning valves and giving up any performance gains, and some drive/rideability. Fuel injection systems have some level of adaptability, but not much. 40 years of engine tuning experience here and have done it all ways. Experience says swapping in a K&N will make the engine sound meaner with a louder intake or exhaust growl, but if you want to get all the benefits of the modifications and protect your investment over time, you will need to adjust the fueling. Or you can just 'sound cool'. I'll tell you this much I wouldn't buy a motorcycle with a modified intake or exhaust that did not have rejetted carbs or an adjusted fuel map. Likely burnt valves or overheated head, high risk of dropped valve seat and other issues.

    I'd say ride for a month this way and pull your plugs. They won't lie. If they are that nice golden brown/tan, you are fine. If the plugs are white or flaky, you are running too hot and lean, if dark and sooty, rich (unlikely). You could play with plug heat range to help, but that is a shortcut. Best way to go is to match the fueling to the intake and exhaust.

    That said, I'd never spend $1000+ to refuel a motorcycle unless I was a professional racer. Can't see spending the $$, but that is me.

    Sound faster? really?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016

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