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Bellagio suspension/handling quirks

getdecent

Just got it firing!
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
6
Location
Portugal
So, 3 ago I got my Bellagio and... It was just the bike for me! Peachy smooth engine, cool positive transmission and a vibe..what a great vibe the bike had!

But...

The chassis always felt off.. On the gas the bike sticks to the pavement and tracks a line, no problem (though it has the tendency to strafe and countersteer to the right). But on the slower stuff, its kinda wobbly and twitchy; with side to side weight transfer on bumps and rougher patches of road (adding to the natural front-back weight transfer due to CARC + engine nature i presume).

I asked my mechanic to drop the forks a little bit and steering is a little bit better(stiffer?) but it really doesn't solve the problem. Suspension settings are stock and the Pirelli Angel Gts do a good job too so... I also raised seat hight to give my legs some room; it feels more like a naked now (still cruisery though!)

I dunno! Is it the bikes character? I mean, im used to it by now, its been 3 years and almost 30k miles.

But i think it can be so much better handling wise. My mechanic says it will be a big investment in new suspension components to make it work, and still no total certainty of it making a real difference. A steering damper could also help?

Has someone with California/Griso felt the same? Something you did to improve it?

Thanks so much for your time!
 
Everything you could possibly want suspension wise, Todd (GTM®) offers in the STORE tab.

Todd is a retired professional rider and racer, and a custom builder of the most amazing modified Moto Guzzi motorcycles you will ever see. He is a true expert at suspension solutions and has numerous highly satisfied customers in the membership of GuzziTech. You couldn’t have found a better resource if you tried. Lucky you!

Most of his suspension options are made to your exact body specifications by Matris and his other suppliers if I remember correctly.

He also has 250,000 miles on a Jackal which he modified the suspension heavily in several different ways.

If you are serious about improving the handling of your motorcycle, then look in the store and send Todd questions about what you are looking at.

Your mechanic would spend tons of money and maybe get you what you want but most likely, not as good as it can be. In this regard, experience and wisdom is king and you would be very hard pressed to find somebody with the real world experience in this arena, greater than Todd. I’m being totally honest with you here. You really can get exactly what you want right here.

Yes, it’s true, quality components from Todd are not cheap, however neither are they outrageously expensive for what you are getting. In most cases, you are getting custom configuration for less than many off the shelf, one size fits all, setups.

You get what you pay for and if you use Todd and his wisdom, and let him guide you, AND LISTEN TO WHAT HE TELLS YOU, you will have a smoking hot handling Bellagio. The best around by far.

This is precisely what you are looking for, and if you get what you pay for, I call that money well spent.

Contact Todd from the SHOP tabs.
 
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I have a Bellagio with about 38000km on the clock and know, not guess about what the author is on about.
Firstly, what model Bellagio does the author have?
I have the Lux model that used to have about 60mm of rear wheel travel as standard, after market shock from IKON here in Oz custom made for my wieght and now has about 160mm of travel made a huge difference not only in shock adsorption but transferring wieght to the front wheel.
Dropped the forks 15mm, more weight transfer.
Next move I am going to replace a the 180 x 55 rear with a 170 x 60 for the following reasons.
The higher profile gives slightly more wieght transference to the front, always good with an old fashioned rear weighted bike.
Better turn in as it more closely matches the fronts profile.
Oh , and watch out for scalloping or getting a wave on the front tyre just off centre contact patch, with this bike It simply ruins handling.
I have tried Pirelli Angel GT2 fronts twice and new, they great but half worn they exhibit an indecision at low speed - not a weave but the bike does not want to steer straight and really wants to fall to either side way too rapidly.
Also had the forks rebuilt to match my wieght, again great improvement.
All done with local mechanics setting the bike up to suit my wieght and wishes.

Sure you can invest on high end parts but for me all of the above gave the best bang for buck and I am quite happy to stop there.

Cheers, Chris.
 
I have a Bellagio with about 38000km on the clock and know, not guess about what the author is on about.
Firstly, what model Bellagio does the author have?
I have the Lux model that used to have about 60mm of rear wheel travel as standard, after market shock from IKON here in Oz custom made for my wieght and now has about 160mm of travel made a huge difference not only in shock adsorption but transferring wieght to the front wheel.
Dropped the forks 15mm, more weight transfer.
Next move I am going to replace a the 180 x 55 rear with a 170 x 60 for the following reasons.
The higher profile gives slightly more wieght transference to the front, always good with an old fashioned rear weighted bike.
Better turn in as it more closely matches the fronts profile.
Oh , and watch out for scalloping or getting a wave on the front tyre just off centre contact patch, with this bike It simply ruins handling.
I have tried Pirelli Angel GT2 fronts twice and new, they great but half worn they exhibit an indecision at low speed - not a weave but the bike does not want to steer straight and really wants to fall to either side way too rapidly.
Also had the forks rebuilt to match my wieght, again great improvement.
All done with local mechanics setting the bike up to suit my wieght and wishes.

Sure you can invest on high end parts but for me all of the above gave the best bang for buck and I am quite happy to stop there.

Cheers, Chris.
Thank you so much for you time Chris!

I feel like, with the Bellagio, because it's such a unique bike, it's hard to find someone who really knows about it's quirks and needs.

I have the Aquila Nera, which i presume is 120mm rear wheel travel? Usually, you would think the "problem" lies within the front end, but the more i read, the more i understand that the rear shock might actually be the one to adjust first.

I have dropped the forks also, but not sure how much (i will check with my mechanic- I'm not the most mechanically inclined person).

As far as tires go, you are absolutely right! My AngelGts1 have 15k km and the front, just like you said, is kind of "un-even". Do you also feel that the bike turns like a dime in right hand turns, but counter-steers in the left hand ones?

When it comes to the forks, what exactly is a rebuild? You changed the internals?

Thank you so much,
João
 
The forks had new seals installed, oil wieght changed ( assuming thinned a little so that it could react better to small bumps) and preloaded adjusted to my all up ready to ride weight.
The issue with the front tyre, in my opinion, is caused by a combination of long wheelbase, fairly short trail and a ride style that uses torque out of corners and I feel that the bike pushes straight ahead out of corners and scrubs the front tyre sideways just off the centre strip.
That and the Angel tyres have just the right distance between grooves to cause extreme feathering.
I will address that with Michelin Pilot next time.

Kinda make sense?
Chris.
 
Just to add to the above, my fork seals weeped at about 10000km - so ask yourself why?
I keep my bike doctors surgery clean, so there is no discernible external cause. But internally its a different story, get your forks rebuilt, cleaned out and set for preloaded before looking towards changing anything else.
Low speed handling issues such as between 0 and say 15 degrees bank angle won't be resolved by going to high end shocks and tyres, the basics need to be right first.
Chris.
 
Just ordered a Michelin Pilot 6 for the front as the club members rave about them and its the only tyre that I have found that mentions improving or at least staying consistent with wear.
And at the moment the more wear I experience the worse things get.
Whilst the shop installs the new tyre I will ask them to check the steering head bearings for wear, and torque setting.
On a ride home tonight it crossed my mind that the 'indecision ' on the front maybe exacerbated by the bearings being torqued down too tight and steering feels like the friction steering dampners found on old Ducatis - in the wet the fibre washers swell and over tighten causing a similar effect.
Strange though when fitting new rubber all of this becomes unnoticeable and it's only until the feathering arrives that it becomes, literally, unbearable.
Will report back when the new rubber arrives and the steering bearings are checked.

Chris.
 
Hi John,
good to hear from you, and I agree a matched pair is usually the best for handling.
But at the moment I have an almost new Pirelli Angel GT II A special (police special in this state) on the back and love that one so is stays until death do depart.
And please accept that I have thought about this deeply considering the following -
1. The Bellagio is to Guzzi what the Monster is to Ducati, a parts bin special and a last gasp at big block two valves and was marketed as direct competition against the old Harley Sportser, so looks more than science ruled many decisions, some good and some not do good.
2. No bike making less than 70 rwh can lay claim to ever using a 180 section tyre to its fullest, there simply is not the force and heat generated to justify the amount of rubber available. The tyre/rim choice is straight from the Griso.
3. So the choice of rear as stated by the factory will never match the front regardless of manufacturer, far better is use a 170 section or less but the rim size limits the safe choice.
4. Changing the front is experimental at this stage, no one knows if a Pilot 6 will be better but after 40000km with Angels I am presuming that it can't be worse.
5. My ride style tells me that I average 60kmh on roads that are speed limited at 100 to 110kmh, whilst there are times I push that limit higher it's not until club runs that the average speed climbs to 70 or 80kmh. And I am very conservative with bank angle since all my riding is on public roads, not track days.
This also tells me that handling at these speeds is dominated by profile match not compound or tread design match since the adhesive limits are never reached.
6. Personally I don't believe that it's 100% possible to match front to rear rubber since the function of each is entirely different and this backed up by manufacturers themselves claiming that even their 'matched pairs ' have different tread patterns, profiles, compounds, recommended pressures, diameters, rotational directions etc.
Add to that the fact it's impossible for manufacturers to know the end use of their carefully crafted matched pair will be and its easy to see that the claim to the benefits of matching for road use are marketing based (of course they want the consumer to buy as much of their brand as possible).

To sum up modern tyres are all that damned good that simple road use will never test their limits and the sheer amount of variety of use will easily defeat any attempt at matching front to rear.
Get the profile right, keep it right during wear and I guarantee that it means far more to handling than any compound or tread differences.
Having said all of that, it's my wish too to use 'matched pairs' but what happens when you like one and revile the other?
To me, a 'matched pair' is using a tyre designated for front use on the front and using a tyre designated for rear use on the rear, if they happen to be from the same manufacturer and type it's a bonus.
Remember the days when you could use the same tyre rotating one way for the front and change rotation for the rear? That's perfectly matched but given choice would you do it?
(Metzeler C5 block tyres openly laid claim to this and I am sure that we are both old enough to recall many others.)

Chris.
 
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Chris, Can't say I agree with all you said, but I'm an old guy. I even ran Dunlop K70s front and rear on my 1973 Eldorado when I had one. Of all the tires I tried, the old style K70s did the best, and they don't even have a rotation arrow on them!
 
Hah! K70'S! I remember those and I quite liked them as when you approached their limit of grip they used to 'talk' to you with a growl similar to what you hear when trucks do a tight U turn, a kinda scrubbing sound.
That's cool if you don't agree with me, but consider this - every recommendation that I have seen with matching tyres always goes back to what the manufacturers, designers and testers have said. And that's fine, they say this matches that, but when they say don't mismatch it's based on what?
Their non existent tests on doing g just that? Have you ever seen Pirelli, Continental, Avon etc ever publish tests using say one of their own on the front and one of the others on the rear?
So at worst it's an unknown and at best it's perfectly fine to use a Michelin P6 on the front and a Pirelli GT Angel on the rear, if they are the correct size and designated use.
And if I write back next week you will know that the Devil hasn't claimed my soul for doing so.
Cheers, Chris.
 
And this rather on point post from Revzilla -
"

Can I run a Michelin in the front and a Pirelli in the back?​

There are rare instances where the OEM tires are mixed brands, but other than those exceptions, RevZilla recommends replacing tires with the tire manufacturer’s recommended match front or rear. Often, a manufacturer will recommend a different model of tire for front and rear, and we will follow that recommendation. Unless a bike was equipped with two different tires from the factory, we do not recommend mixing tire brands because differences in tire handling and performance can cause an otherwise well-behaved motorcycle to act in an unpredictable, unsafe manner. Tire manufacturers engineered their tires to work with a matched partner. You paid for all that engineering, so why not use it?"

Well I don't have " an otherwise well-behaved motorcycle" and neither does the original poster
 
I greatly appreciate all the back and forth discussion guys, you are helping me a ton!

Soon I'll do the 30k check-up and step 1 will be having the forks cleaned up and rebuilt for my weight. Steering head bearings will also be checked and i need a new pair of tires (i would like a matching pair, but with these wheel sizes they are hard to find-i want to try something different than the angel Gt's).

Sometimes i find it a bit sad that Guzzi was able to let such a poor handling bike be sold to their customers like that. YET, why do i love it so much? xD
 
… Sometimes i find it a bit sad that Guzzi was able to let such a poor handling bike be sold to their customers like that. YET, why do i love it so much? xD…

My opinion:

Huh?

I disagree.

Most everybody out there in the world, clearly states the excellent handling of this model as well as the entire California platform. It’s one of its hallmarks.

I’ve owned several from this platform, including the California Vintage right now. I’ve ridden the Bellagio many times.

With any Moto Guzzi California I have owned, (Cal III, 1100i, V11-EV, California Vintage) I can ride circles around any other cruiser made and mine still sports it’s stock suspension and I am a short, squatty, fat, old Italian man who weighs 350 lbs! I find the stock suspension with it’s adjustability to be very good and I left it alone. Yes, I would probably update it if this was my only Moto Guzzi motorcycle but luckily, it is not.

You can improve the suspension through the fine options that are available and like I told you long ago but I guess it didn’t sink in at all, Todd (GTM) has 250,000+ miles that he rode on his Jackal, and he revised and developed the suspensions several times during that period.


For very little coin, you could have the most experienced man out there on this platform, get you dialed in quickly and correctly, but for some reason you never even mentioned it.

I still say that I don’t know what you are talking about here, and if you were here, I’d let you try and follow me through the twisties and let you see just how good a California platform handles. I can grind stuff off of it with ease through the curves, if I so desired.

It’s that good to begin with. That is why you love it so much.

Stop trying to convince yourself that it is “such a poor handling bike” because it most certainly is not. Not in the least.

It most definitely can be improved, but it is no slouch to begin with.
 
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Hard to match when the front is tubed and the rear tubeless, like I said before the bike is a Frankenstein.
Make the best of it you can my friend and there is no shame in bring different.

Chris.
 
No bike making less than 70 rwh can lay claim to ever using a 180 section tyre to its fullest, there simply is not the force and heat generated to justify the amount of rubber available.

My opinion:

Not at the speeds you may ride on but I assure you, I can roll pea scrub beads right off a stock tire of a Bellagio from edge to edge on Mt. Palomar in San Diego, California. I’ve done it many times.

It’s not the horsepower that dictates tire surface usage. It’s the rider, the road, the line, and most importantly, road speed.

Enter hot enough and you will have to use the entire lean available on a 180 tire.
 
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Scott, perhaps you should review the original post and I quote "But on the slower stuff, its kinda wobbly and twitchy; with side to side weight transfer on bumps and rougher patches of road ."
Clearly it's lack of steering precision at low speed and both Bellagio owners have identified the front tyres wear pattern as the culprit.
Does a Matris $1500 AU rear mono shock or $1200 AU fork solve low speed wieght transfer issues?

Just to be clear here, and perhaps a bit brutal, the Bellagio is unique and you have never ridden one (edit, you have ridden one?) and every perfume scented review on them obviously uses a brand new bike with brand new tyres so never comes across the issue of a half worn tyre that needs to be thrown out because of scalloping.
To reiterate the bike is not the problem, it's how it's set-up with a poor choice of tyre that simply doesn't suit it.
With a brand new Pirelli Angel it's beautiful in the bends but half worn it's an absolute pig.
Looking at my front right now the profile can be described as dead flat for 25mm on the crown and then a scalloped ridge both sides after that and then almost flat on the sides to the each of contact.
And the TWI's are nowhere near reached.

This results in the steering at low speeds to strongly resist initial input and when you apply enough force to overcome it, it suddenly pitches into the corner very rapidly resulting in rapid counter steering to correct and the whole circus makes you look like a nervous beginner learning to ride.
At higher speeds there is enough centrifugal force in the tyre to stabilise the steer/ counter debacle into something looking a bit more professional.

My belief is that it's the distance between grooving on the tread coupled with over damped forks that hammered the profile into something that looks and feels like corrugated iron.
I addressed the fork dampening by getting a professional suspension company to flush out what looked like grease from the fully adjustable 45mm Marzocchi forks, and here I assume you know what a bucket of sludge would be to those tiny control valves and rods?
And it definitely helped as did setting the sag correctly.

Please accept that I would kill for a complete Matris set up but if it's something as specific as the wrong tyre choice and not having the bike setup properly then I can't justify paying for high end parts due to poor servicing.

Chris.
 
My opinion:

Huh?

I disagree.

Most everybody out there in the world, clearly states the excellent handling of this model as well as the entire California platform. It’s one of its hallmarks.

I’ve owned several from this platform, including the California Vintage right now. I’ve ridden the Bellagio many times.

With any Moto Guzzi California I have owned, (Cal III, 1100i, V11-EV, California Vintage) I can ride circles around any other cruiser made and mine still sports it’s stock suspension and I am a short, squatty, fat, old Italian man who weighs 350 lbs! I find the stock suspension with it’s adjustability to be very good and I left it alone. Yes, I would probably update it if this was my only Moto Guzzi motorcycle but luckily, it is not.

You can improve the suspension through the fine options that are available and like I told you long ago but I guess it didn’t sink in at all, Todd (GTM) has 250,000+ miles that he rode on his Jackal, and he revised and developed the suspensions several times during that period.


For very little coin, you could have the most experienced man out there on this platform, get you dialed in quickly and correctly, but for some reason you never even mentioned it.

I still say that I don’t know what you are talking about here, and if you were here, I’d let you try and follow me through the twisties and let you see just how good a California platform handles. I can grind stuff off of it with ease through the curves, if I so desired.

It’s that good to begin with. That is why you love it so much.

Stop trying to convince yourself that it is “such a poor handling bike” because it most certainly is not. Not in the least.

It most definitely can be improved, but it is no slouch to begin with.
Well, when it comes to Todd, of course it sinked in. I have contacted him already :)

When it comes to the handling part, i think there is a misunderstanding here. For someone who rides bikes daily and consistently, good handling is not only about how much lean angle i can do or how good the bike tracks the pavement on the gas (being agressive). It's also about how it behaves in the slow stuff; tight on-off/steady throttle and bumpy turns. THAT'S where the bike starts falling apart.

On my way to work i have a long right handed turn that you do steadily on the throttle. The pavement is good but bumpy. The bike just wobbles left to right like a freak (unless i get aggressive with it and give it some gas; in that case it behaves). Oh, and don't even try to do it when it rains, you'll shit yourself all day!

So yeah, handling kinda sucks once you really start knowing the Bellagio (i have about 30k in mine; it's not much but it's a little more that a small spirited ride once or twice in a summer day), but it's good to be honest about it so we can fix it. It's a beautiful bike!
 
Scott, perhaps you should review the original post and I quote "But on the slower stuff, its kinda wobbly and twitchy; with side to side weight transfer on bumps and rougher patches of road ."
Clearly it's lack of steering precision at low speed and both Bellagio owners have identified the front tyres wear pattern as the culprit.
Does a Matris $1500 AU rear mono shock or $1200 AU fork solve low speed wieght transfer issues?

Just to be clear here, and perhaps a bit brutal, the Bellagio is unique and you have never ridden one (edit, you have ridden one?) and every perfume scented review on them obviously uses a brand new bike with brand new tyres so never comes across the issue of a half worn tyre that needs to be thrown out because of scalloping.
To reiterate the bike is not the problem, it's how it's set-up with a poor choice of tyre that simply doesn't suit it.
With a brand new Pirelli Angel it's beautiful in the bends but half worn it's an absolute pig.
Looking at my front right now the profile can be described as dead flat for 25mm on the crown and then a scalloped ridge both sides after that and then almost flat on the sides to the each of contact.
And the TWI's are nowhere near reached.

This results in the steering at low speeds to strongly resist initial input and when you apply enough force to overcome it, it suddenly pitches into the corner very rapidly resulting in rapid counter steering to correct and the whole circus makes you look like a nervous beginner learning to ride.
At higher speeds there is enough centrifugal force in the tyre to stabilise the steer/ counter debacle into something looking a bit more professional.

My belief is that it's the distance between grooving on the tread coupled with over damped forks that hammered the profile into something that looks and feels like corrugated iron.
I addressed the fork dampening by getting a professional suspension company to flush out what looked like grease from the fully adjustable 45mm Marzocchi forks, and here I assume you know what a bucket of sludge would be to those tiny control valves and rods?
And it definitely helped as did setting the sag correctly.

Please accept that I would kill for a complete Matris set up but if it's something as specific as the wrong tyre choice and not having the bike setup properly then I can't justify paying for high end parts due to poor servicing.

Chris.
THIS! You perfectly described it!
 
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