Ridemalibu Motorcycle Rentals & Tours – Los Angeles CA
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Bike won’t start

Discussion in 'V7/V85/V9 Chat & Tech' started by dududuckling, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. vagrant

    vagrant High Miler GT Contributor

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    charge it, run it down to an auto parts store and have a load test done. if it's internally shorted jumping won't work.
    remember these are tiny piss ass batteries that have to be perfect to work. mine don't sit more than 2 weeks without a charger on them.
     
    john zibell likes this.
  2. tikimatic

    tikimatic Just got it firing!

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    thank you all for you precious help :)
    I ordered one of those fancy Shorai batteries (super hard to find an European store who delivers to Finland :( ).

    Could somebody give me a short explanation why with bad battery I can't even jumpstart the bike ? (I mean I'm interested to read even a long explanation too :) )That seem so strange to me.
     
  3. Trout

    Trout GT Reference

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    A chain is only as good as the weakest link, too much strain the link breaks.

    A battery is only as good as the weakest cell.
    Each cell is connected to the next cell.
    If the connection is weak the battery may show voltage BUT is not strong enough to carry the amperage required to spin the engine.
     
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  4. Kevin.NZ

    Kevin.NZ Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    You could take the bike battery out of circuit then jumper the car battery to the bike, if it exhibits the same symptom as before then you could check cable connections, earths etc, I mean it could be a faulty solenoid/starter.
     
  5. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    If you try to jump start it off a car battery and it still won't start, try disconnecting the motorcycle battery so it is only hooked to the car battery. That takes the motorcycle battery out of the equation. However, if it does start like that don't run it very long as the charging system is not made to charge a battery that large. It won't immediately blow up, but it could cause issues if you let it try for too long.
    That sound is typical of either a bad battery or bad connections, especially to ground. As mentioned, if a battery is only at 12.56 volts after being fully charged that battery has problems. That is not fully charged. If that is the best that battery can do it needs to be replaced.
     
  6. Richard Ducati

    Richard Ducati Tuned and Synch'ed

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    I've suffered from odd starting behavior on my 2014 Special since the get-go...bought it in March 2018 with about 1,300 miles. I thought I read that the MPH Cycles fix would work on my machine, but it doesn't seem to be wired correctly. In my case, the wire running from the starter relay to the starter solenoid is an open tab where at the harness connector and is replaced by a hot wire running from the positive battery terminal at the relay connector. Obviously, the fix isn't wired properly for my harness/generation of machine. I've attached a wiring diagram for my machine...#6 is the starter relay. If I understand the startus interruptus fix properly, the positive battery feed should be directed to the #5 connector on the starter relay. As indicated, my MPH harness puts it to the #3 connector.

    Question: does the MPH Cycle fix even work with my generation V7? Or were the issues mostly driven by low battery voltage for the post-CARC bikes?
     

    Attached Files:

  7. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Just move the wires in the MPH connector. They will release using a jewelers screwdriver to release the tab.
     
  8. Richard Ducati

    Richard Ducati Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Yes, I saw that in an earlier post or a different thread. I guess I just didn't know if it even would help! The post-CARC bikes seem more sensitive to low battery voltage than the crooked path leading to the starter relay. Will do it as a preventative measure I guess...

    Thanks for the quick response.

    -- Rich
     
  9. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Racer and my battery saga...

    My OEM battery was seemingly bad from the day I bought Racer in October 2017. I replaced it in February 2018 with a Lithium battery that was reputed to be great. I disconnected it when I went on a six week trip August 2018, when I got back in the first week of October it was dead anyway. It charged up, however. Through the rest of October and November it worked fine and the charge system checks showed perfect behavior, although I was only riding a couple of short rides a week for whatever reasons. Then, two days after I'd done a pretty hefty ride in the second week of December, it died and would no longer take any charge at all.

    I spoke with the vendor a dozen times over the next month, including sending the battery to them for "evaluation." (Don't know what they were going to evaluate, "It's dead, Jim.") They offered me a max of 20% rebate on a new battery. I'm sorry, that's simply absurd: nine months light use and careful maintenance of a $200 plus battery should net total replacement under warranty if the vendor stands behind their product.

    I replaced it with a $100 AGM battery, rated similar amps and cold cranking to the LiFePo battey, on March 17, 2019. Working fine again, charging system checks out: looking perfect again. Three year 100% warranty supposedly. Keeping my fingers crossed. I've checked every parameter I can, including standby battery drain with ignition off ... everything is well within spec. The battery should sit in the bike for up to five weeks with no maintenance needed. The bike rarely sits that long, and usually goes out for a nice 50-100 miles every week (at least), and I rarely let the revs drop much under 3500 rpm so it gets full charging advantage.

    At least if this AGM battery dies inside of a year and they stiff me on the warranty, I'm only out $100, not $200+. And I have a lovely LiFePo battery charger for sale, if anyone needs it ... that alone cost me double what my excellent BatteryTender cost me.

    G
     
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  10. GT-Rx®

    GT-Rx® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Damn, why didn’t you write me back and let me step in to help. Unacceptable, agreed. I’ll email you after I post this.
     
  11. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Thank you, Todd. No problem at all ... don't feel that there's any reflection on you. Everything you've done for me and my bike has been top notch. A battery should be a simple commodity purchase, you're just the retail reseller; the warranty issues are the responsibility of the battery manufacturer to correct.

    We'll talk about it in email. :)

    G
     
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  12. tikimatic

    tikimatic Just got it firing!

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    Hello.

    The bike started with that new Shorai battery. Thanks for your help you saved me a costly trip to the garage and learnt things about batteries too.

    Is there an easy way to cut the circuit instead of opening that box and taking the battery out ? (like take one fuse out from under the seat ?)
     
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  13. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    If you want to cut out the battery, just take off the side panel and remove the negative terminal connection. There's no single fuse in the system that will do this, and its much easier than trying to find and install a battery cut out switch that will fit somewhere on the bike. :)
     
  14. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    Pulling the 30 Amp fuse F (6) will cut the battery out, except the feed to the starter motor solenoid and starter motor itself (which would be too large a switch to be practical) and the feed to the 20A fuse G (7), the fuse to the ABS unit.

    Or you could remove both fuses F & G (6 & 7) which will immobilize everything.

    upload_2019-4-30_13-49-27.png
     
  15. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Personally, I still prefer to just disconnect the negative battery lead. There's no ambiguity, and it's just four bolts. It positively, absolutely disconnects the battery entirely...
     
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  16. Richard Ducati

    Richard Ducati Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Okay, so I did the direct starter relay feed (a.k.a. MPH fix...albeit I ended up doing my own feeder rather than using their pigtail) and it seems to have helped a bit. Less frequent failure of the starter circuit. I'm still not happy with the whole arrangement, though, as the ECU interruption will still happen when battery voltage is even a bit less than perfectly ideal. My battery is 4 years old, so I'm fine with having to buy another and am okay with the service life received from the stock battery. The fact that this started happening last season is bit unsettling...a 3 year old battery seems too new to require replacement and the whole 'cut out' / start circuit block out method of interruption rather extreme.

    In a word, the whole affair has left me far from confident in the reliability for starting when on a trip or even just away from home on errands. Frankly, I've gotten an average of 6-7 years of service out of the batteries in my '04 Triumph without drama and would like similar confidence in my V7. Has anyone figured out how to by-pass the ECU interlock entirely? I've also not attempted to push start my Special...how well do these machines bump start?

    Thanks in advance for you input.

    Regards,

    -- Rich
     
  17. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    I have push started a few fuel injected Guzzi's. It can be done as long as the battery has enough juice to run the ECU.
    You could simply wire in a bypass directly to the starter solenoid that could be used when the standard method doesn't want to work.
    If you send 12 volts to the starter solenoid it should trigger and run the starter. At that point, as long as the ECU and everything else has enough voltage to work it should start. I would not use that all the time. And keep in mind whatever switch you use would need to be able to handle the amount of voltage required by the starter solenoid. That is way less than the amount required to run the starter itself, but it still needs to be able to carry the current of the solenoid. Although in a pinch I have simply held a wire from the positive of the battery to the solenoid.
     
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  18. tonUPRacer

    tonUPRacer Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

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    The MPH by pass has fixed my "replace the battery every year syndrome". 2013 Racer.
     
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  19. Richard Ducati

    Richard Ducati Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Okay, last question - promise!

    Do the Lithium batteries have any advantage in terms of static voltage level? I believe they sit at a slightly higher level than lead-acid batteries (at least that's the impression I got via google) and thought it might be a plus when considering voltage drop/voltage level at the ECU on our machines.
     
  20. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    My two cents, based on my experience, is that they do sit at a slightly higher static voltage compared to normal lead acid batteries. But not much higher than a quality AGM battery. And they don't have any more amperage behind them vs an AGM. In addition, they suffer in the cold.
    But they can hold a charge much longer, all else being equal. And they are smaller and lighter.
    I had one on my Griso a while back, it was the first time I ever experienced the no start problem. I figure I will try one again at some point as the technology keeps improving. I plan on buying one of the new versions Todd sells. But I think it is a mistake to by one expecting more power for starting. That isn't really what they do in my experience.

    Funny story, I just went to mow my lawn yesterday evening. Go to start the lawn tractor and - nothing. Battery dead. Five years or so, I suppose it was time. But it did die suddenly, no warning. Put a charger on it for a half hour, still nothing. Pull a used AGM motorcycle battery off the shelf that was in the wifes V11 until I replaced it with a new one. The battery isn't bad, just was getting old. I had thrown it on a charger once a year or so since then (it is now easily 5 years old or more). Fired up the lawn tractor and mowed the lawn. I will be curious to see how long the AGM battery lasts in the lawn tractor. It is only about 2/3s the size of the original battery, but it is about twice the weight.
    By the way, the dead battery in the lawn tractor would show over 12 volts surface charge, but it had no amperage behind it. The surface voltage reading on the AGM was less (if I wasn't in a rush I would have let it sit on a charger for a day) but the AGM still started the motor of the lawn tractor like it was nothing.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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