Breva 750 Inconsistent Starting

[The_Happy_Drunk]

Hello,

The 750, on occasions, has had trouble starting. Not having trouble firing-up but actually turning the motor over with the starter. I hear a clicking noise but nothing else. To get things working again I would turn the ignition off and back on again and try starting again.
At first I thought it was me not waiting for the Engine computer to complete its self-test cycle. I now wait for the gauges to swing off scale and back, and for the EFI light to go out. The problem still presents itself and I started thinking it could be linked to the Stand Switch, but before I got to check this theory, I started thinking its more serious and could be related to the starter motor of starter solenoid. On the way home from work today, I stopped at the shops and once again had trouble starting the engine. Instead of my normal techniques. I repeatedly hit the starter button, after the third attempt, the engine turned over and fired up. I should point out that the battery is good and turns the engine over without any problems ...... when the starter does it's job ....

So what do the gurus think? Is there an area that I have missed or does my theory on the starter motor have merit? I will be calling the dealer as I've only had it for a few weeks and I think they "should" cover this under warranty.

Cheers
The Happy Drunk

 

[Holt]

Doesn't blow a fuse (ECU-fuse, 1:st in the row) when this happens?
If you can hear the relay clicking, at least the relay works...

I've experienced the phenomenom once, at a very inconvenient time, standing at an Italian motorway in 40*C heat. Blew a couple of fuses. Then I got the bright idea to engage a gear, rocked the bike back and forth a couple of times - and it worked.
My idea was that the starter motor gears were standing teeth to teeth. They are straight cut, after all.

Nobody ever accepted that idea but the same persons didn't come up with a better explanation...

 

[The_Happy_Drunk]

doesn't appear to, Everything works and most of the time the next start, starts as advertised.

The theory you have could have merit, but I've experience similar in cars when the brushes of the starter motor were on their way out. Your right if I can hear the clicking, the solenoid must be working. Though in those cases the starter sometimes would Attempt to turn the motor, albeit slowly. I think I will get it checked out at the dealers .... warranty means I don't need to get dirty for a change LOL

 

[oldmanjob]

Could be a low charge on the battery. Starters will just click when battery has a low charge, even though the gauges light up.

 

[NOLAGuzzi]

Can you tell where the click is coming from? Is is a relay or the solenoid? If your starter is going south it will get hot with each click. Put your hand on it when you hear the click and see if that is happening. My breva is sensitive too, she plays this game with me when the battery it a bit lower than fully charged. Usually a long ride or an evening on the charger solves things for a bit. However I have found it necessary to do the relay shuffle on one occasion. Others have run a direct line from the battery to the starter relay and have good luck.
That is outlined in this thread
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=20429.0

I find that Holt's red herring method of bumping the rear wheel works too. I usually roll back a couple of feet before I hit the starter button.

Keep us posted on what your dealer says.

 

[sign216]

I agree; if you can hear the solenoid click then the problem must be the starter, although the battery is a possibility and that's an easy check.

I've rebuilt a starter before. It's dirt cheap financally, but takes some time, especially sourcing the brushes.

Joe

 

[draidt]

Check the negative battery lead on both ends, a little corrosion and viola, It has been the reason for a lot of Guzzis. While your at it redo the positive lead at the battery and at the starter.

 

[russ in pa]

I agree with Holt. I have had this happen to me three times where all I get is a click when pushing the starter. Putting it in gear and rocking it worked the 3 times. Last year I blew about four starter fuses but that has not happened this year. I am still running a 10 amp fuse in the starter circuit but always keep a spare 10 & 15A with me. I have about 12,000 mi on the Breva. All my battery terminals are clean and it is kept on a battery tender. I think the design of the starting circuit is marginal and a weak battery may just expose some of the weaknesses.

 

[The_Happy_Drunk]

Thanks for all of the replies and advice.

The bike will be in to get checked first thing in the morning. The mechanic seemed to think it was a switch but I'm not 100% convinced. The engine starts great with good engine turnover so I think the battery is fine. It's just getting to the start stage that seems to be a problem ;-) So far I haven't blown any fuses but I will check to ensure I have spares tomorrow.

If I have the problem tomorrow I will try the rocking technique. The work tomorrow will be under warranty so I will limit my own fault finding until I have exhausted the dealers resources.

Again Thanks
Leon

 

[Holt]

When you're not drunk, how's your driving?

Short trips with a lot of starting, or longer tours, allowing the battery to charge completely?
The alternator will not charge well below 4000 rpms, so if your starting troubles appears after city driving, and the better performed starts after longer trips, it may be the battery anyhow.

Just a thought.

 

[The_Happy_Drunk]

my riding?
Well as I've only had the bike a couple of weeks, so I've been trying to get a bit of riding in. It's been hard between work and interstate trips (not on the bike.
But my daily commute is 20-25 minutes sitting at 80-110km/hr (mainly 110km/hr) and a couple of times I took the long way home which totalled about 60-70kms/ I've only ridden right into the city but the bike didn't play=up during that time.

4000rpm, that's pretty close to 100km/hr?

 

[Holt]

I think so. But that is in 5th....

That kind of riding shouldn't kill the battery.

 

[The_Happy_Drunk]

that's what I thought

 

[sign216]

Holt wrote:

The alternator will not charge well below 4000 rpms

You're thinking back to the old dc generators that vehicles use to have. Modern engines with solid state alternators charge the battery even with lower rpms.

Unless you only go the corner store and back, driving style shouldn't be the problem.

 

[Holt]

sign216 wrote:

Holt wrote:

The alternator will not charge well below 4000 rpms

You're thinking back to the old dc generators that vehicles use to have. Modern engines with solid state alternators charge the battery even with lower rpms.

Unless you only go the corner store and back, driving style shouldn't be the problem.

No, I'm thinking smallblocks here.

 

[NOLAGuzzi]

Holt is right. Short trips don't charge the battery well. I commute (~ 10 miles) on my breva daily and I find that a battery tender is my friend. If you want to know the real state of your battery at start up stick a volt meter on it and watch the drop when you hit the starter.
Seems strange that short trips with lots of starts would be a problem, don't some places use the small block breva as a police bike?

 

[Holt]

NOLAGuzzi wrote:

Holt is right. Short trips don't charge the battery well. I commute (~ 10 miles) on my breva daily and I find that a battery tender is my friend. If you want to know the real state of your battery at start up stick a volt meter on it and watch the drop when you hit the starter.
Seems strange that short trips with lots of starts would be a problem, don't some places use the small block breva as a police bike?

Yup.
But those places are mainly Italian. They probably never stop the engine. :woohoo:

Mostly MC (and car) alternators are geared to run considerably faster than the motor revs. So also the newer MG big blocks.
But the smallblock alternators are still attatched directly to the shaft and won't go a single rev faster than the motor. Of which the poor charge capacity at low revs.

 

[sign216]

I am corrected.

 

[The_Happy_Drunk]

Well, who originally mentioned the battery?

I just dropped the bike off at the dealer. The first start in the morning went well but the second (after 20 minutes riding at 90-100Km) the problem appeared. When I got to the dealer the mechanic had a play but this time it was worse, for the first time since I had it the clicking noise was a rapid burst of clicks.

They're replacing the battery with a brand new one and while they're at it, they checking all terminals, connections, and switches (just to be sure)

The loaner bike they gave was a brand new Ducati GT1000 ..... I'm glad they gave me this bike, it reinforces that the Guzzi was the right choice for me. The engine has heaps of poke, but I hate the riding position.

Thanks for all of the advice, I think I will invest in a battery saver in the future.

Cheers
Leon.

 

[Holt]

The_Happy_Drunk wrote:

Thanks for all of the advice, I think I will invest in a battery saver in the future.

Cheers
Leon.

While at it, may I humbly suggest one of these?

http://www.ctek.com/EN-US/Buy-US-Charger.aspx

Waterproof, also supplied with a connector to attach to the battery for easy charging, without any demounting.

I'm happy to hear it's solved, anyway. Think it was our senior memeber who suggested the battery. :laugh: