Breva 750, starting issue

[The_Happy_Drunk]

Hi all,

Not sure if I'm in the right forum, I have a small block and this appears to be the only small block forum available. If there is a more appropriate forum, just say and I will be happy to re-post there.

I ride a Breva 750 '03 model, and have been experiencing more and more issues when starting. I normally get one go at starting and if it doesn't start, I "might" get a second go if I'm lucky. The engine turns but appears slightly laboured. Today, it would start and the only way to get going was by push starting.

I originally thought it was a dying battery and as such replaced it. The old battery was a Deka and it's CCA rating was 210 (and three years old). The replacement battery was the same type but the newer models are now CCA 220. I replaced the battery last week which seemed to fix the issue until yesterday. The bike is also connected to a battery saver (trickle and maintenance charger) whenever the bike is parked at home.

Today, I removed the battery and starter motor. I checked the starter motors brushes which seem fine (about half length left), I also checked and cleaned the connections and the mounting points of the starter motor. I also did the same to the earthing point to the engine block and re-checked the battery terminals and cables. The engine block earthing point and the starter motor mounting point had a small amount of build-up but have now been cleaned. I also checked all of the fuses.

I'm now waiting for the battery to be fully charged before seeing if the engine will start again, at which point I will confirm that the battery is being charged while the bike is running. I will see if there is any drain from the battery when not running.

My question is....if I still have an issue, what should I be looking at next. I really would prefer to fix it myself but its getting to the point of taking it to a professional.

Cheers
Leon

 

[Brian UK]

Just to clarify, when you try to start it the starter motor turns the engine every time, but slowly. You never just get a click and no turning of the engine?

 

[john zibell]

I don't recommend leaving a battery on a trickle charger continuously. 24 hours once a month is enough. Leaving them on continuously can ruin a battery. As a battery ages, it will not reach the voltage the "tender" is looking for. As a result the charge continues cooking your battery. This will lead to premature failure. I've been following this practice for years. My MkV LeMans has a 10 year old battery and is still fine. Same is true for the original battery in my 2006 1100 Breva.

As for your issue, let us know how things go after you try your next start. If you still have the problem, I suggest you test the amperage the starter is drawing. Most auto parts stores can check this for you.

 

[GTM®]

John moved the topic to the Small Block Forum here, thanks John.

In addition to what John posted above, test the voltage seen at the starter from the wiring harness, and look into this mod if it's much lower then what you see at the battery terminals; http://guzzitech.com/forum/196/4908

 

[The_Happy_Drunk]

HI,

Thanks for the replies.

Yes the starter turns the engine every time, albeit progressively slower at each attempt.
I tried a restart this morning, and the battery was indicating fully charged via the tender, but had no luck. I would guess that the starter motor was spinning around 70% of what I would expect it should be.

John, you're the first person to suggest not using the tender continuously. I will do some more research but will definitely look into using the tender less frequently.

I will also, find out the best method to check the load when starting, I have several multimeter's but not sure if they have the capacity. I'm also going to check the wire diagram to see if there is something obvious that I have missed.

Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Leon

 

[sign216]

Leon,

I agree the the battery tender should not be left on constantly. I just charge my battery up every few weeks in winter, and that's it.

A good next step is testing the voltage at the starter, and the starter circuit modification, as suggested. This mod will give the starter more direct access to the battery for increased starting power. It doesn't always help, but in your case its sounds like it might.

Let me know how this works out.

Joe

 

[Brian UK]

Regarding the trickle charging, don't leave it too long between top ups as there is a parasitic drain on the battery all the time by the ECU. This will discharge the battery in quite a short time, and the one thing which kills these small batteries is deep discharge.

The wiring mod referred to will make no difference to the speed at which the starter turns. It will only improve the reliability and operation of the starter solenoid.

If the starter motor is turning more slowly that you think is correct, then this can only be caused by two things.
Possibly the motor is not working as well as it should, but more likley the volts to the starter motor are low, either due to a battery in poor state, or a bad connection somewhere in the large wires from the battery to earth and battery to starter solenoid.

 

[The_Happy_Drunk]

Hi all,

Brian, I agree, the mod that was offered only looks at the starter motor solenoid.

My battery has one large cable connected to the positive terminal, about 15cm away from the battery it forks into two separate cables. One directly to the Starter Motor, and the other heads of to joins the rest of the bike's electrics.

Today, I connected a jumper lead from the positive terminal of the battery to the main terminal of the starter motor. the starter motor showed no improvement and no engine start. I then connected an addition jumper lead from the negative terminal to one of the starter motor bolts. I think the motor spun slightly quicker but not really much of an improvement. When I get another chance to look at it, I will rig up a temporary circuit to operate the solenoid. I figure if the starter motor has direct connections to the battery and a separate solenoid circuit isolated from the rest of the bikes electrics I will either confirm or eliminate the starter motor from my fault finding. Or at least get a better picture of where to focus on.

Unless my logic has missed something?

Cheers Leon

 

[f111eagle]

i had similar problem and found it was the connection to the battery .
it had a hairline crack in it and i only found it because a friend of mine said to grease the terminal and then clean it of and their was a dirty jagged line on the cable lug

 

[motoguzziman]

OK, first thing, does the headlight dim as you hit the starter ?
If the battery is fine, then you should not see much difference in the headlight.
I use an Odessy battery, and yes they are worth the extra cash.
Now, get yourself a pair of long nose pliers ( about 3 inches ) with rubber handle covers, from Wall Mart or the like.
Make sure the bike is in neutral !
With the Ignition on, and choke on
Crouch down by the starter motor.
Holding the rubber handle, place one side of the pliers, firmly on the exposed metal of the spade connector on the side of the solenoid, facing you.

Then, place the other jaw on the nut that you can see at the top of the solenoid.

Yes, it may spark a bit, but, holding the pliers on both parts for a couple of seconds,
( same length of time as you would press the starter button )

Does the starter motor now sound fully energized ? Or is it still sluggish ?
If it is still sluggish, then you probably have a bad solenoid, or a loose or broken THICK wire
If it bursts into life, then you have a voltage loss somewhere in the smaller wires.
Please keep us informed of your progress.
Good Luck

 

[russ in pa]

I had to replace my starter last year. It was always a little sluggish even from day one when I bought the bike new. If the bike did not start on the first or second try I was out of luck. Replaced the battery a couple of times over the years but never really improved much. Then last year when I went to start the bike the starter made a grinding sound.