Cal 1100i won't start hot

[Abo]

Fantastic site! I'm so pleased to become a member. So, here goes with my first problem.

I just acquired a 1995 Cal 1100i with 8500 mi. The bike starts great cold, even real cold. She runs beautifully. But when she's hot (like a few minutes stop) I hit the starter button and I get a very short burst, as if she's starting, and then nothing. Then she'll crank and crank but will not come alive. First thing you know there's the smell of fumes. I have tried waiting different length time periods before trying again, but she usually needs around 1/2 hour of cooling before she starts. Then life is good again.

For sure I would appreciate some suggestions as to how to make her happy.
Abo

 

[john zibell]

Possibility an ignition coil(s) is/are failing once hot. Check to see if you have spark when she fails to start. Be sure to check both sides. Let us know what you discover and we can go from there.

 

[Abo]

Possibility an ignition coil(s) is/are failing once hot. Check to see if you have spark when she fails to start. Be sure to check both sides. Let us know what you discover and we can go from there.

Right on John. I see the sense in your suggestion. I'll get to that ASAP and let you know what happened. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Abo]

Possibility an ignition coil(s) is/are failing once hot. Check to see if you have spark when she fails to start. Be sure to check both sides. Let us know what you discover and we can go from there.

Thinking on the subject at hand leads me to ask you "If the coil(S) fail when they get hot then why would it run so well once started?"

 

[kiwi dave]

Is it running rich? Check the plugs for colour.

 

[Abo]

Is it running rich? Check the plugs for colour.

The plugs show slightly rich, that is to say dark in color but not black. I did try John's suggested test, and there is plenty of spark when hot, but still refusing to start. Please tell me what you think.

 

[Abo]

Possibility an ignition coil(s) is/are failing once hot. Check to see if you have spark when she fails to start. Be sure to check both sides. Let us know what you discover and we can go from there.

I did check both sides as you suggested. I've got spark when she refuses to start while hot

 

[kiwi dave]

Can you ride the bike for extended amounts of time after you start it from cold? i.e. does it still run well after it's warmed up good? It's only restarting when warm is your problem?

 

[john zibell]

If you have good spark when warm, then it is a fuel/fuel pressure issue. After you answer Kiwi Dave's question we will have a direction to go.

 

[Abo]

Can you ride the bike for extended amounts of time after you start it from cold? i.e. does it still run well after it's warmed up good? It's only restarting when warm is your problem?

Yes, I rode maybe 25 miles yesterday. She runs very well. Smooth w/ good, regular idle. If stop engine it will restart immediately. If I wait five minutes it's a no-go for 30 minutes.

 

[john zibell]

Can you get access to diagnostic software/equipment? I'm thinking the engine temperature sensor may be giving the ECU bad information after it sits for the 5 minutes resulting in an incorrect mix for starting. The temperature sensor in a valve cover is not the most ideal location. Also running some injector cleaner through the system may help. My now go to product is BG injection system cleaner https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline-fuel-system/bg-fuel-injection-system-cleaner/ Some auto parts houses carry it. Only use the recommended amount for the fuel in the tank. More is not necessarily better.

 

[Abo]

Can you get access to diagnostic software/equipment? I'm thinking the engine temperature sensor may be giving the ECU bad information after it sits for the 5 minutes resulting in an incorrect mix for starting. The temperature sensor in a valve cover is not the most ideal location. Also running some injector cleaner through the system may help. My now go to product is BG injection system cleaner https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline-fuel-system/bg-fuel-injection-system-cleaner/ Some auto parts houses carry it. Only use the recommended amount for the fuel in the tank. More is not necessarily better.

Thanks for staying with me on this, John.
I'm in the boonies of East Virginia, so hopefully a ride today will land me a can of BG. I did use plenty of Sea Foam on the first tank.
Would a standard car engine analyzer work on this big twin? If so, there's a local car-fix shop where I could hook'er up.
The heat sensor makes sense to me. In fact, I had already priced one at MGCycle before reading your suggestion. But I hate to start throwing parts (money!!) at her without a strong argument for the fix.
Abo

 

[john zibell]

Thanks for staying with me on this, John.
I'm in the boonies of East Virginia, so hopefully a ride today will land me a can of BG. I did use plenty of Sea Foam on the first tank.
Would a standard car engine analyzer work on this big twin? If so, there's a local car-fix shop where I could hook'er up.
The heat sensor makes sense to me. In fact, I had already priced one at MGCycle before reading your suggestion. But I hate to start throwing parts (money!!) at her without a strong argument for the fix.
Abo

Standard car software won't talk to the Marelli ECU. If there is an Aprilla, or Ducati dealer around they can talk with the P8. Last resort is in the store tab to purchase the software and cabling required. Or download the P8 manual in the downloads section (donation to site required) and you can read the sensor with an ohm meter. The manual has a chart for what the resistance should be at given temperatures.

 

[GuzziMoto]

It could be a heat soak related issue, I have heard of that affecting people with early V11's. Once running it is fine, but when stopped while hot it heat soaks the fuel system leading to some sort of vapor lock.
Of course, I don't have a Cali and don't know if they share the same layout as an early V11. The blame often fell on the external fuel pump and lines, sitting between the V of the motor in a hot location.
It could also be the temp sensor soaking up heat and giving a too high reading.
A couple odd things to try.
When trying to start it hot, try opening the gas cap in case there is a venting issue and a build up of vacuum (or pressure). Also, try cycling the key on then off a few times, letting the fuel pump run until it stops each time you turn the key on.

 

[Abo]

It could be a heat soak related issue, I have heard of that affecting people with early V11's. Once running it is fine, but when stopped while hot it heat soaks the fuel system leading to some sort of vapor lock.
Of course, I don't have a Cali and don't know if they share the same layout as an early V11. The blame often fell on the external fuel pump and lines, sitting between the V of the motor in a hot location.
It could also be the temp sensor soaking up heat and giving a too high reading.
A couple odd things to try.
When trying to start it hot, try opening the gas cap in case there is a venting issue and a build up of vacuum (or pressure). Also, try cycling the key on then off a few times, letting the fuel pump run until it stops each time you turn the key on.

I can't tell you and John how glad I am to have joined GuzziTech,com. Ever since I got this Cal 1100i I have felt like I was back "in the old days" when motorcycling was about riders connecting and helping each other instead being a cocky independent, forever tied to the dealers without a clue about what wrenching on a bike can mean. Okay, I'm done, back to question at hand.
At John's suggestion I found a Ducati/Aprilia dealer 50miles away. I went there yesterday with my no/start/hot problem. Yes, they will hook it up to the "Way Back Machine" which promises to diagnose the problem. Dave, at Redline Sports in Yorktown, VA, said he thought it could be "the evaporator Valve" stuck open. Now, I wonder if I heard him right because on returning to my shop manual I can't find any part by that name. At least it can work out for me in another way in that I need to get my P-8 re-mapped to run a tubular crossover and LaFranconi's. So, there you go, this time I gotta pony-up to the dealer.

Thanks guys. I'll let you know what happens next week after I drop it off. Still I would be interested to see what ya'll have to tell me.
BTW I did try the open gas cap trick, w/ no desired result.

 

[john zibell]

Abo, The P8 is not easily re-mapped. The map resides on an e-prom that has to be replaces with an e-prom that contains the new map. Todd's suggestion for the PC III might be an easier way to go. You shouldn't need to change the map for just changing the crossover. Also with the Lafranconis you may or may not. In any case, the PC III upgrade would make for a happier engine.

 

[GuzziMoto]

I assume the "evaporator valve" refers to a valve for the emissions canister that lets stored fuel vapor back into the intake tract while running. A common mod on bikes with the emissions canister is to remove it and plug the holes, except you do need to keep the one that vents the fuel tank open to atmosphere so that the tank is vented. With the system hooked up it vents the fuel tank to the emissions canister, then it feeds that fuel vapor back to the motor via the intake tract when the motor is running. It can lead to issues, hence many people remove it. It is typically only found on US bikes. It is not specific to Moto Guzzi, it is a common thing on US bikes. It used to be only on bikes sold in California, but now it is pretty much on all US bikes. Guzzi, since they sold in such low numbers, put the emissions canister on all their bikes imported as they did not have the resources to import two different versions of a bike.
Like John said, the OEM P8 is not typically "re-mapped". If you want to change fueling you either replace the chip, add a Power Commander or such, or perhaps replace the ECU with something that is programmable.
But You should not need to do that to get run well enough, although a Power Commander can be useful.
I have heard good things about Dave, but I have not dealt with him myself. I like to do as much as I can myself, but a good dealer with Moto Guzzi is a very useful thing to have.

 

[Abo]

I assume the "evaporator valve" refers to a valve for the emissions canister that lets stored fuel vapor back into the intake tract while running. A common mod on bikes with the emissions canister is to remove it and plug the holes, except you do need to keep the one that vents the fuel tank open to atmosphere so that the tank is vented. With the system hooked up it vents the fuel tank to the emissions canister, then it feeds that fuel vapor back to the motor via the intake tract when the motor is running. It can lead to issues, hence many people remove it. It is typically only found on US bikes. It is not specific to Moto Guzzi, it is a common thing on US bikes. It used to be only on bikes sold in California, but now it is pretty much on all US bikes. Guzzi, since they sold in such low numbers, put the emissions canister on all their bikes imported as they did not have the resources to import two different versions of a bike.
Like John said, the OEM P8 is not typically "re-mapped". If you want to change fueling you either replace the chip, add a Power Commander or such, or perhaps replace the ECU with something that is programmable.
But You should not need to do that to get run well enough, although a Power Commander can be useful.
I have heard good things about Dave, but I have not dealt with him myself. I like to do as much as I can myself, but a good dealer with Moto Guzzi is a very useful thing to have.

So, I think I will install the tube crossover and Lafranconi's and go from there. In my Guzziology book author does discuss reprogramming or replacing the EPROM chip. I'm hoping Dave at Redline has a handle on that.