Cali 3 linked brakes verses T3 linked brakes

[Drumnagorrach]

I find my Cali 3 brakes slow to react,I assume the balance valve is sticking,but I'm fairly sure my old T3 didn't have the valve,and it stopped fine.
Question-- Do I really need it ? after riding bikes that would easily lock the front wheel,wouldn't my own judgement suffice ?
I also find the front brake very hard on the lever,feels wooden, nothing siezed ( I checked )but it seems that the master cylinder is too large a dia ( not having a good ratio ). I would expect a little give in the lever when squeezed,mine is rock hard.
I find that the brakes stop fine from higher speeds,telling me that maybe the pads are a bit hard,but that wouldn't explain the lack of sqeezability of the front brak lever.
Any ideas ?
Lee

 

[john zibell]

Rock hard front brake lever is a good thing. The hose isn't expanding.

As for the feel, could be may things, pads, rotors, combination. I'm not to sure if the CAL III junction block on the integrated side is proportional or not. Much debate on that. It is on the EV series, but I don't think it is on the other. Are you resting your heel on the brake lever heel peg? It will give you a better feel on the foot brake if you are accustomed to riding a bike that is outfitted with pegs,

 

[Brian UK]

I thought the Cali III was essentially the same as the Spada III, and that definitely has a proportioning valve. But that just limits the rear brake anyway.

 

[moto]

I find my Cali 3 brakes slow to react,I assume the balance valve is sticking,but I'm fairly sure my old T3 didn't have the valve,and it stopped fine.
Question-- Do I really need it ? after riding bikes that would easily lock the front wheel,wouldn't my own judgement suffice ?
Lee

You're right about the T3 -- no proportioning valve. It uses a simple manifold with one inlet, two outlets, and a brake light switch fitting.

Having read the detailed discussion of the various linked (integrated) brake setups in Guzziology (more than once), I don't think any proportioning is really necessary. Nor do I put much stock in the variations of pad specifications that Guzziology analyzes so inconclusively.

The T3 stops very well if you use common sense and don't overdo the front brake, but still USE the front brake for hard stops. I suspect the later proportioning valves were attempts to improve response for those who just wanted to stomp on the rear brake pedal. But that screws things up if you want to use the front lever more actively.

I have a NOS T3 manifold on hand, with thoughts of converting my Griso to the T3 system. I don't see why you shouldn't do the same. The linked system of the T3 is superb, I think.

 

[Drumnagorrach]

Moto, my thoughts were to simply take out he "gut's " of the valve,leaving it in effect the same as the T3,just a T piece .
I too consider the T3 brake system to be as good as it gets, I could stop my 76 T3 Cali with just my right foot for most situations,the bike just seemed to squat down and stop.

 

[Brian UK]

There are actually two active parts to the Cali III valve. There is a valve which reduces the braking effort on the rear, and also a valve which delays slightly the front brake activation. This latter one you will have a real problem removing without destroying the whole thing. Guess how I know.

 

[moto]

Drumnagorrach, if taking the guts out is impractical (as Brian UK says), putting in a genuine T3 manifold might work. I expect they are not hard to find.

However, it may be that the sizes of the brake master and slave cylinders, and the diameters of the disks and the tires might mean that your bike would have an inappropriate front/rear balance of braking force with a T3 manifold. I emphasize may be. I think it would work well so long as the front isn't over-powered compared to the rear, and expect there is a lot of leeway in the particular balance that would be satisfactory.

If I ever get around to converting my Griso I expect to make an actual calculation taking into account the factors I just mentioned, and comparing the results I get for the Griso with the ones I get for my T3. Probably resizing the front or rear master cylinders will be necessary on the Griso, since it has non-linked brakes as delivered. But for your Cali III, the existing master cylinders may be satisfactory.

 

[Drumnagorrach]

Really not a problem guys, Both my last sport bikes, sport 1100 and Buell lightning,had useless rear brakes ,and front ones that would lift the back wheel.
What was the problem,Brian ,when you took your valve apart ?

 

[moto]

Really not a problem guys, Both my last sport bikes, sport 1100 and Buell lightning,had useless rear brakes ,and front ones that would lift the back wheel.

I've had those bikes too. The problem I was concerned about comes when you are braking in situations where you don't want the front wheel to lock up and wash out, like gravel or slick intersections. On a non-linked system you can apply more rear brake, but on a linked system with too-strong front brake you can't do that.

Also, that "squat-down-and-stop" phenomenon that you described so well only happens because the rear brake takes effect forcefully at the same time as the front.

So you need balance between the front and back to get T3-like performance, and you need a relatively strong rear brake in particular.

 

[Brian UK]

As Isaid, there are two parts to the unit. One limits the pressure to the rear brake, and that is in the main body. That comes apart easily.
The other is a little valve which slightly delays the front, it actually requires a minimum of some pressure to open. This is in the outlet manufold for thefront brake, and is very thin aluminium. It also siezes in, and any attempt to unscrew it will distort the whole thing, so that it would be impossible to refit the brake pipe for the front.

 

[Drumnagorrach]

I see where your coming from ,Moto,your comment has just reminded me of the problems I had in snow with the old T3. Every time I tried to slow the damn thing down my front wheel started to slide away. The more I consider the situation, the more de-linking seems to be the way ahead,between my last T3 and this Cali 3, I have ridden bikes with fairly fierce front brakes,and I expect to be able to stop useing two fingers ( I even had a Harley 1200 S that had double front discs,and stopped ).Because I only have one front brake on the front lever ,two fingers don't do it, Do you suppose I would get enough stopping power with both front discs on the lever ?

Brian, could the delay valve to the front be drilled out ? the front brake delay is exactly what I find disconcerting about the Cali 3 and if I could get rid of it I might be able to live with the linked brakes.

btw. I have just fitted ebc double H pads to the front,to see if they help,but havn't test ridden ,got dragged away to help with horsey stuff.
Cheers
Lee

 

[moto]

I see where your coming from ,Moto,your comment has just reminded me of the problems I had in snow with the old T3. Every time I tried to slow the damn thing down my front wheel started to slide away. The more I consider the situation, the more de-linking seems to be the way ahead,between my last T3 and this Cali 3, I have ridden bikes with fairly fierce front brakes,and I expect to be able to stop useing two fingers ( I even had a Harley 1200 S that had double front discs,and stopped ).Because I only have one front brake on the front lever ,two fingers don't do it, Do you suppose I would get enough stopping power with both front discs on the lever ?

I've ridden all winter through snow on my T3 with no problems, but I used trials-pattern tires. I only experienced the front washing out on the slickest of bare ice; worst conditions I've seen. I've pretty much given up on the winter riding thing lately, so that's not a concern.

If you want to know about relative power with particular master/slave cylinder combinations, etc., in a de-linked system the best thing is to buy and read Guzziology, published by and available from Moto International, at (US) 206.297.3822 or 800.949.MOTO.

 

[Drumnagorrach]

Buy !!!! check out my location, just not our way, I have a friend has a copy, I will look at his----------------- only kidding about the Scots thrift thing.
The ebc pads are a great improvement,as is modifying the stainless cover that the footbrake fouls if the lever is lowered ( a classic example of style triumphing over design ) with the lever at a reasonable angle ,the foot brake can be controled properly as on a T3 , which doesnt have a stainless cover to foul the lever.

 

[Brian UK]

Brian, could the delay valve to the front be drilled out ? the front brake delay is exactly what I find disconcerting about the Cali 3 and if I could get rid of it I might be able to live with the linked brakes.

btw. I have just fitted ebc double H pads to the front,to see if they help,but havn't test ridden ,got dragged away to help with horsey stuff.
Cheers
Lee

I can't answer that, you would have to look for yourself, but it might be difficult, as the little valve will be steel, and the housing thin aluminium.
I see you have the same enforced "distractions" as I do. :lol:

 

[guzzibob]

If you are using the EBC HH pads on the stock cast iron T3 rotors, they will seem great for now-but will eventually warp the rotors. I warped 2 or 3 this way on my T3. The HH specify NOT for use on cast iron rotors for this very reason. I went back to organic Ferodo Platinum series organic pads on the integrated/foot brakes, F&R-& went to the very cool easy bolt on EBC full floating stainless rotor, which is designed to work with the EBC HH pads -& does so very well without warping- on my right front/hand brake only. You can get these rotors from vintagebrakes.com or (I think) MG Cycle. I did not use the new rotor on the left front because since there is no equivelent non-cast iron rear, that would grossly distort the front/rear ratio on the integrated brakes-which I like way, way too much to remove. Also like that the different left/right front rotors attracts attention & conversation about the integrated brakes. There is a thread somewhere here which shows a picture of this rotor. Anyway, 2-3 years ago ordered the one rotor from vintage brakes which they order from the UK. Took about 2 weeks & $230 delivered to my door near LA. Not that much more than the cast iron rotor, but way cooler looking & way more effective with the EBC HH pads compared to the stock rotor with organic (non-warping) GG pads.

 

[Drumnagorrach]

Thanks for the heads up on disc warping, I will put the question to Gutsibits here in the U.K. Why they supplied pads that will warp my cast discs, there is a much vaunted bit of the order form ,were details of your bike are entered to make sure ,they use their expertise to ensure you get the right parts !!
Cheers
Lee
p.s. I aint taking em off , I ilke the stopping power too much.