Camshaft questions webcam 86d vs. norris /megac X7, X8

[Hudriwudri]

hi there,

i would have a couple questions regarding the aftermarket race cams for the guzzi round fin models and hope that i could tap into some of the info that is around here

For the new build up of my 1000cc tonti im considering buying the 86b camshaft of webcam since it seems to have with similar lift 0.45 vs the norris /megacycle X7 / X8 grind considerably shorter duration and to be honest a rather attractive price tag vs. the 416 for the megacycle cam (cant one send them anymore a good used cam for weld up??).
Point is that im not quite sure but with the long intake duration the norris shafts have they might be not so suitable for the road and i would love to avoid huges holes in the power delivery. I was assuming that the 86b should perform rather well with intake timing @0.040 (kinda extrapolated) 28op / 58 closes especially considering that i was planning to change the rocker ratio to achieve 0.5 valve lift among other things.
Anyways to cut it short Has anybody used that 86b grind by web cams yet?
Anything to tell? Or should i go with the norris grind?? I would just love some tractability left on the engine thus my leaning towards shorter duration and higher valve lifts.
I would be very interested to hear some opinions and if more info is requested about my plans on the engine i gladly will.

Thanks a lot

ciao and kind regards

Christian

 

[guzzigray]

I don't have experience using a webcam but I had a Megacycle X8 in my street bike at one time. It's a great cam but totally unnecessary for the street. How often do you need to rev a street bike to 8500 where the power is ? I now have an Megacycle X10 in my streetbike and it's an awesome cam. I even have one in my 1100 race bike and it's great in that too.

The gossip I've heard about webcams is that they are soft. Bill Ross will have better info about the subject.

Good luck.

 

[5154Guzzi]

Christian,
Web 86b camshafts.... setting 1000cc Guzzi powered land speed records since 2008... I have had a few issues, some have been my fault. I dont have experience with the Megacycle Cams but my opinion is they probably hold up better than the Web Weldups for the long term. They also have oil lube holes to keep the lifters lubed better and can be used with stock diameter Guzzi lifters. Valve springs pressures are critical, dont over spring the lobes. The 86b grind requires a larger diameter lifter which causes greater expense than the difference in price. The 86b pulls hard from the bottom to about 8200 in my long stroke 973cc motor. I started with the 86c grind, and prefer the shorter duration of the 86b. Those X7 Megacam profiles are pretty crazy even for land speed, one really needs high CR to take advantage. I`d go with the grinds Andrew is using if I went with any of Megacycles grinds, but I dont know what you are doing with your bike ?? Bill

 

[Hudriwudri]

Hi and thanks a lot for your replies,

helped me already a lot to draw tighter circles around on what to get.

As i really do not have the nerve to bore/bush out the tappet bores on my block i guess that unfortunately allready ruled out the 86b web cam.

To my plans, as of now i have a mildly tuned engine by a known european guzzi tuner done in a classic fashion (P3 cam, drilled starter wheel etc. 36 dellortos dyna ignition) done for the previous owner of the bike.
Being so far super happy with the bike but sure there is a lot more oooomph to be left and discovered with a more elaborated approach.
My plans would be of now:
weld up the comb. chambers on the sides in order to achieve more squish then accordingly unmask the vicinity of the valves together with some custom dome pistons and a compr. ratio of bout 12:1 with dual plugs.
Do an angle job to the valve inclination in order to be able to put in 47-49ish intake valves and 40-41ish on exhaust (i would prefer to stay rather on the smaller side but have to see what the flowbench tells in autumn).
raise and decrease the Inclination of the intake port since the ports dont look too nice to me in stock form.
The x7 cam in particular seemed very nice to me because i thought it might be the same profile as a cam that is being sold in europe by schrick (although no distributor gear) for the guzzi.
Both cams strangely "seem" to have 53/89 89/53 at half a millimeter or 0.020 on the valve and pretty much the same valve lift at around 11.8mm's.
My assumption (hoping i ain't wrong!) was that the X7 should perhaps give best TQ around 5000-6000rpms and the X8 cam with a somewhat earlier intake closing bout 500-1000 rpms earlier.
For the valve springs i wanted to use the springs that i use allready in my Yamaha (500) single 2 valve racer of similar dimensions, 95ibs@seat and bout 220ish@13mm if i remember correctly. If those numbers sound too high please dont hesitate to tell as im pretty open to constructive critics or a lively discussion.

Hope everything doesnt sound too esoteric; my assumption was that the X7 as well as the X8 should give with quite some head work added compr. and a suitable exhaust and carb a nice tractable engine.
For the beginning i would have rather chosen the much shorter 86b webcam but as mentioned lifter boring stays out of the question since i want to leave the block as much as possible untouched
And yes i admit :lol: my plan was indeed to use the bike a lil now and then on the coast road or back country :whistle: .

thanks a lot again

and kind regards

christian

PS: @guzzigray: do you still have that X8 by any chance??? :whistle:

 

[guzzigray]

Hi. I don't have the X8 anymore.

Your estimates for spring pressure are correct for an X8. That's what mine were set at.

If you are building a top end race engine you are going in the right direction. For the street you may be disappointed as you'll need to be going 110mph to see the benefits. A small valve SP will give you a run for your money up to that point.

Regards.

 

[Tonerjockey]

Hey Christian,

I run a Megacycle X7 on a V7 Sport in Land Speed Racing. In my class (750 P-PP) I have to use Delortto 30's and stay at 750cc.

With pistons designed for standard volume heads, but using modified heads (recessed exh etc.) I got VERY low compression. I believe that my best run was about 80 MPH at a density altititude of about 7,000 feet (>100 F).

I had a set of pistons made for the modified heads I use. The pistons have .020" clearance all around. I flycut the exh relief to .100" and intake to .070".

With the "new" pistons and a B10 cam I got about 205 or so pounds of static compression. With the X7 (382 Norris) cam I get about 180-190 pounds static (cranking, carb WOT etc.)

I am still screwing around with ignition (Volker Sachse electronic) timing curves but the bike now revs to 7900 RPM in 3rd (stock trans and Convert 9/34 rear). with astonishing ease. I am hoping that I can use the higher placement of max torque to get closer to some records.

For my purposes, it's a radical cam IMHO.

Alex

 

[rolf j]

For track use I don't seem to get sense out of the different curves in these ignition systems (at least not for single spark plugs), including Sachse's, SilentHektic and perhaps others. They seem to give lots of choice between different curves down at a rev.-level which is definately for street use e.g. typically up to about 3000. By the time you get anywhere near the power band most useful on the track, the curve has hit the ceiling anyway. (Perhaps different for twin sparks however, where you'll need a different shape of the curve alltogether). Perhaps the rather crude timing in the Lucas Rita system makes good sense for track use anyway?

Something I haven't understood here?

rolf j
V7-Sport for the track

 

[Tonerjockey]

The difficulty with the Sache system is doing a timing tweek at the track. Moving that little wheel and then checking the timing, then repeat is not good for me. Espeically in the hot, dusty (salty) conditions I race in. Then again I've only tried it once (and sure don't wanna hafta do it again).

The curves are all terra incognito to me yet. I do know that the curves make a big difference to my engine. I ran a pass using curve 5 and couldn't rev past 6500. The next pass at curve 9 and I hit the limiter at 7900 (I've since set that limiter to 9800).
Obviously I have a lot to learn yet about this ignition system. I have an hour booked on theDyno next week to work on ignition.

Alex

 

[Hudriwudri]

Hi there

and thanks a lot fellas great help and great advice with which i will most likely stick as i decided i might opt for the for the tamer X8 cam since from what you guys tell it seems to be for now the smarter choice and i can still play with a lil in shifting the intake closing and if i get really nuts i could still eventually upgrade for the wilder X7.
Also i read somewhere that the X8 -RR3 was also recommended by manfred hecht for hot street driven engines.
So as soon as i have a lil money saved up im going to do the ordering and then will try to take measurements (lift profile) to see about the cam specs@the valve.
Being allready really curious about the numbers.

May i ask you where you got it or did you get it straight at megacycle?
Somebody have it in stock for a reasonable price?

kind regards and thanks

christian

 

[Tonerjockey]

I called Megacycle (they're less than an hour from my place) and the woman I spoke with must have been upset about something. She told me she didn't want to sell a cam to me. "New Style" marketing devotee I spoze.

Next call was to Mike Rich (570-676-4785 ). Civil, knowlegeable, and he had one in stock. X7.

I paid list price and am not sorry I did.

One just went for $229 on eBay... kinda scary buying something that critical with no recourse.

Best of luck. Let us know how your new cam works out.

Alex

 

[5154Guzzi]

Ol Barbara there at Megacycle has to be the most angry, rudest person I`v ever dealed with in anything Motorcycle related. So much to the point I`d quit racing before I run one of their cams. I`m sure they have a nice effective product, but they certainly lack in customer relations skills.

 

[Hudriwudri]

hehehe yup that was one of the reasons why i posted that question here since i wanted to avoid calling their technical hotline hence barbara :lol: for that exact matter as i as well experienced varieing degrees of affection to customers :lol: , especially since i wanted some info that seems to be not covered in the catalogue, hence perhaps even more elaborated answers needed :evil: . Nevertheless its a pitty since their products are after all really outstanding in engineering and quality !!!
For now im as mentioned heavily contemplating on buying the RR3 since in unison with the welded rockers it should give a mighty interesting 3/4 cam as i think at looking at the exhaust port that anything much over 11mm's lift is not gonna help too much anyways on the exhaust besides perhaps a more rapid opening rate.

@tonerjockey:
Do you have perhaps some timing figures of the X7 at the valve and if so perhaps at 0.040? Reason is that i suspect the advertised duration@0.040 is at the cam and not at the valve, and even recalculating with the rockerratio (which i guess is about 1.19ish??) i really have a hard time believing that the intake valve would close that late on a pushrod engine. I.m.h.o. 40 iop/"76 "icl @0.040 (i assume@tappet with.19 rocker ratio))seems really pretty outta this world at a first glimpse and the cam specs of the german cam has mysteriously the same duration at 0.020 of 322 but an intake closing of 66@0.040 which seemed rather interesting besides the hopeless lack of a distributor gear.

@5154Guzzi:
I would have one more question regarding the webcam 86b would you remember by any chance what kind of tappet diameter was needed to make tha cam not run of the outer perimeter of the tappet face?? Reason is i got told by a friend that supposedly the v11 have supposedly mushroom tappets with a bigger cam face but the standard bore diameter of 22mm's also i have seen that peter horvath in vienna sells some nice looking custom made guzzi 4340 crmo tappets ( http://www.horvath-tuning.at/Produkte/stoss.gif) that look like having a bigger cam face.

Sorry for all my brain tapping questions and Thanks a lot again and i will keep you fellas posted on the news and hopefully some info i might run across.

kind regards from genoa

Christian

 

[5154Guzzi]

Christian,
i`m using Ford mushroom tappets that have been modified a bit. They are from a ford V8 and the original diameter has been cut down to .960 thou/inches. much larger and they may/will bang into a neighboring cam lobe. there`s not much consistancy in the average lobe thickness and spacing with factory cams. I have measured wild differences. The stem on these ford mushrooms is .4965 thou , so the guzzi lifter bores were bushed ( not drilled ) to make up the difference. Stock Guzzi lifter diameter is .866 if I recall . The underside of the bushings, inside the case required some hand clearancing, especially for hi lift cams like the 86c and an experimental I had made by Crower which has .490 valve lift. The ford tappets require different radius pushrods than the Guzzi uses , ended up using Crower cut to fit drag race chromoly pushrods for the bonneville application, short stiff and yes... heavy, but very little to no flex. The ford mushrooms look to be cast iron, they are very hard and mettalurgy /hardness between lobe and lifter is a very important consideration.
Whats nice about WebCam, is they will build you other cams if you require a profile different than the a b or c offering. Those b and c profiles are the same as some used in some other engines.. ie vw etc.. Those engines have larger tappets and much better rocker arm ratio choices... They built me a nice cam for the upcoming turbo motor, I haven`t assembled it yet to see if it can be used with stock guzzi lifters, maybe though as it has much less duration than the b but still decent lift numbers. The hydro motor uses a mushroom tappet but the overall face is pretty much the same as the solid tappets of the older engines. One last thing, I dont know of any wear issues withe the Web 86a profile, these were marketed by Raceco US as the " 390 " cam. I have them in several street motors and so far, no problems, it`s a great performance cam for the street.

Hope thats helpful for you Christian, let us know how you fare with the welded up ratio rockers, we`ve been very tempted to go that route, but i`m not ready to be the guinea pig at 170 mph ! Bill Ross

 

[Hudriwudri]

Hi bill,

i enjoyed very much reading your post, thanks a ton.
Yes Yes the supplied info was very helpful (more than that actually) indeed with the running face diameter i can allready figure/ estimate what is kind of necessary.
Also the explanation bout webcam makes it even harder for me to buy the RR3 / megacycle which is currently my favorite to buy for first trials since i really want to get rid of the semi low lift P3 cam to see what happens with higher lift as im pretty sure that appropiately modded guzzi round heads should be able to take lift around the 14mm range for the intake.
For now (darn sake of making things easier) I will try most likely the RR3 and will give mike rich a call, but sooner or later i have to give those fellas at webcam a call as also about other cam questions they have been always suuuuper friendly and helpful so hopefully on the long run i will cook something up with their help.
Besides that i have to buy some tappets anyways to go with the new cam so voila time to bug the shops to show me the parts(T3 vs. V11?) if i as well am going to buy them :lol:
For the hi ratio rockers i will gladly keep you posted even though im currently still in the planning stages and eager to find small quantities of of suitable cr-mo Welding rod, i still have to find out how much carbon there is in the original rockers thus weldability, as im also not to hot to treat the only engine i have with trial and error.
Anyways as soon as i have some more infos i will gladly post them.
Currently i just have to wait for most of my tools as the garage/shop is not being finished therefore im pretty much stuck to just planning :roll: .

Btw Bill, since i read about the crower cr-mo pushrods have you looked into the 3M MMC- pushrods??
They supposedly cost a fortune but from what i read they are really as good as the metal matrix fame claims.

kind regards

Christian

 

[guzzigray]

https://www.guzzitech.com/Files/megacams.pdf

 

[5154Guzzi]

Christian,
You will most likely talk with one of the sisters at WebCam, they have always been patient and polite with me. I did look at those 3m pushrods about 3 years ago a little, way out of my budget then, same with Mike Rich`s titaniums and other folks aluminum composite. The Crowers, though very heavy, are stiff as hell and are getting the job done. No failures or issues there so far. I dont see much over 8500 rpm, the power is falling offby then. A note of caution on calculating the lifter diameter required. When web put my freshly built 86c on their cam doctor, the information indicated the stock lifters would be compatable, I ran the motor, they weren`t . Consider putting some ink or marking on the face of the lifters, assemble one side and turn the motor by hand to see what the lobe is wiping off and how much `reserve` is left. if the lobe swipes all the ink, the lifter is too small. I have no doubt a square head can handle 1/2 inch or 13 mm, but it really gets tough with long duration, especially with oversized valves. They have to be sunk so far you start having a cereal bowl for a head. If you are successful at changing the stock ratio by welding, you will really be on to a good thing If I recall some readings , Lifts exceeding 13mm in a guzzi head have dimenishing returns, you might see what the flowbench says about your heads ?
Cheers, Bill

 

[Hudriwudri]

Hi folks

thanks a lot for the replies, within the next weeks some original tappets should arrive and then i should have basically all the needed measurements to make approximations bout cam specs, since i would also really like to learn a lil on this job.

@tonerjockey:
hi alex
I take it that since you use the X7 in your V7 one can assume that the mounting measurements of the megacyclecam(bearing/bushing diameter, distributordrivegear, gearspigot) are the same as on the original V7 cam :whistle: ??
Because if so then i could try to find a considerably cheaper used v7 cam instead of a later round style engine cam(T3,LM2, sp mille) to use as a blank sooner or later, for sending out to get welded (its not urgent but i always wanted to know :woohoo: )

kind regards

christian

 

[motoguzznix]

Hi Hoodri

The V7 cam has a different distributor drive and the rev counter drive at the front is missing too. Apart from this it will fit in nicely.
A highly tuned engine as you intend to build - you won't drive it with distributor and points, won't you?

Ernst

 

[Hudriwudri]

Hi ernst,

nice to hear from you long time no hear, hope you're doin well.
Thanks for the good info as i was almost close to buying a V7 cam in order to have a blank (which would have been useless for the lm distributorgear), fortunately i shot myself yesterday a tonti cam in ebay for a reasonable price, which im going to keep as a blank for a possible weld up.

Hmmm i admit i "was" planing on using the distributor since the distributor has back then been converted to dyna 3 and never gave me troubles (especially after i overhauled it years ago and blueprinted the sensors since they were somewhat 3degr. off) and worked rather well and i wanted to keep the ignition somewhat plug n play as my somewhat questionable initial idea was. Nevertheless since also some of my pals told me that the crankshaftmounted system is ages better i am by now pretty convinced to get eventually the sachse system since it seems besides very good documentation/support and a terrific :woohoo: price also pretty easy to install.

Have you been doing further flowbenchtests on your heads as i remember you have been also busy modifying the port shapes?

kind regards and

liebe gruesze aus genua

Christian

 

[Tonerjockey]

Hey Christian,

Sorry for the delay in response.

The X7 slipped right in. I had to use modified pistons... but that was OK since I had the pistons made for the cam and head specs.

New lifters too.

This cam (and other engine configurations) changed my power band considerably and allowed the engine to rev to 8000RPM in 3rd. Rod bearing spin territory.
The B10 set up would not rev past 6550 or so.

Alex