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Clam-Pack Battery packs (formerly CARBON SPEED)

Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Question: If they are sso sensitive to complete discharge, then will it not be a problem that the bike's computer is permanently drawing power even when the bike is off, or is the "off" current draw so small it won't matter?
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Spaceclam said:
Each cell is about the size of a C-cell, at 1" diameter x 2.5" tall. I have yet to determine the ideal cell layout, but if i just made a brick of cells, a 12 cell would be as thick as the original battery, 2 inches narrower, and 4.5 inches shorter. an 8 cell pack would be 2/3 the thickness, and a 4 cell would be 1/3 the thickness.

I just went to measure the current draw and i couldnt get a reading. Maybe my VM is broken, because i put it in series with the battery with alligator clips, and and as soon as i disconnected the battery, the ecu's blinky light went away, and it reset itself when i put the terminals back on.

So, if anyone here has numbers, please speak up.

Otherwise, let's say it draws 10 mah. That gives you a pretty even month with the 12 cell pack. It should only draw enough to keep the clock and the alarm light tickled

Regarding the stepper motor. It's normal to hear the thing grind away for a few seconds after turning it off, but if you have the strange condition where it never stops, you have a problem.

If you are going to store it for long periods of time, i'd disconnect it, or use a tender, if you do so already. D/Cing the battery will be MUCH easier, since it wont be a tight fit like the OEM battery.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

SpaceClam - I'm interested in one of these for my 80 V1000 Cafe project. Can you provide physical dimensions for the 12 pack and confirm whether these may be mounted in any position. Thanks, and its cool you are doing this.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Andrew...

Prior to it's first charging , how long can we store these batteries? My bikes both have new units. I like the idea of weight removal and would be interested in these replacements...

vivo
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

at 1% per year self discharge, you can store these batteries for a LONG time. It's only when they are hooked up to a costant drain (like the small, slow current draw from the ECU/dash or whatever it is) that you need to be mindful. You can unplug the battery and let it sit there for years.
 
OK, so here are the amperage results.

Upon starting, my griso pulls an inrush of about 200 amps, and over the next half second settles down to about 60 amps as the motor spins up. Since each series set of cells is good to 150amps inrush and 60 for short pulse discharge, an 8 cell pack is plenty, and a 12 cell pack provides the overkill that we usually like on our bikes. That's what ill be putting in mine.

Smaller bikes could make use of the 4 cells just fine, but i wouldnt put it on a big block.
 
Wow. That explains why one can observe such a serious voltage drop during the starting cycle, and it corroborates an estimate I had of a peak consumption of about 3000 watts.

I've invited someone from the french forums to follow this who might at some point be interested to add this kind of battery to the line of products he offers (you counting to set up a commerce in this, SpaceClam?). He raised a question about the charging method, i.e. that to maximise longevity, one should use an intelligent charging method that's different from what's optimal for lead-based batteries. In fact, if these lithium batteries are comparable to what one finds in things like computers, camcorders and the like, they have a guaranteed number of charging cycles before they start losing charging capacity. And no matter the state of discharge, a charging cycle is a charging cycle, whether you still had 90% charge left, or 5%. That must be one reason why batteries for high-end equipment cost so much: they come with considerable embedded intelligence.

How's that with these cells, are they (more) compatible with a continuous charge as happens in vehicles?
 
Spaceclam said:
OK, so here are the amperage results.

Upon starting, my griso pulls an inrush of about 200 amps, and over the next half second settles down to about 60 amps as the motor spins up. Since each series set of cells is good to 150amps inrush and 60 for short pulse discharge, an 8 cell pack is plenty, and a 12 cell pack provides the overkill that we usually like on our bikes. That's what ill be putting in mine.

Smaller bikes could make use of the 4 cells just fine, but i wouldnt put it on a big block.

I'm not astonished about the numbers.
But - isn't the starter motors equal in all models, the Valeo seems to be shared? With some older GM Opel's as well. :mrgreen:
 
I'm betting you'll see much less amperage if that motor turns just the air around the spindle, with 0 load. In fact, I'm pretty certain about that ;)
 
RJVB,

For the most part, the batteries that go into computers and stuff are expensive because they are branded. Although some have built in battery management systems in the packs themselves, while others are built into the devices. Those things will protect against over discharge.

Ideally, we'd have the same thing except it would have to be placed in series with the low voltage coil to the battery relay. That requires modification. I'd be willing to do it, but at the number of packs i'd be making, its just not worth it. If i had a serious business going, then yes. I just want this opperation to pay for a pack myself, since i need a new battery. Sure, i'd LIKE to make money, and these batteries are actually universal, but i dont have the exposure in the circles of other brands that i need. Of course, i wouldn't mind a little commerce either. :)

As for intelligent chargers, they have their place. Since every battery brand/model has a slightly different peak voltage, intelligent chargers sense the difference based upon the number of cells it sees, and compensates to give a full charge. Also, it varies the charging voltage to obtain an often user set # of charge amps through-ought the charging cycle.

That's all nice, but not necessary here. It just so happens that these cells have a full charge voltage that's a mere fraction (about .05 volts per cell) above what our charge systems put out, and the batteries are beefy enough to take whatever # of amps is induced by the difference in voltage between the battery and the charge system. That is why i chose these cells, specifically. As long as you dont start the bike 20 times before letting it recharge, the batteries should only charge at a few mAH, which is plenty gentile. They should last much longer than our sealed lead cells.
 
Thinking of doing a prototype 12 cell to see how it performs? Assuming it's all good I would want a unit.

Second question.... big battery/little battery....now it flops around in the stock battery-holder...duhhh... Clam clamp for the Griso??? Standard battery terminals?

So that's 25 pounds off the stock Griso with the battery and End Can changes...can't be a bad thing can it?

vivo
 
MY prototype will be a 12 cell, cause i like overkill. I have offered the 12 cell as per my first post, but It looks like there are only 8 cells left to be claimed, though we will see. First email gets it.

As for flopping around in the battery compartment, a piece of velcro should work nicely. I havent decided how the wires are going to terminate yet. That's part of the prototype model.
 
Seems to me that anyone contemplating a battery with a capacity as low as 5AH is courting disaster. You would only have to have a day when the bike was being a bit stubborn, and all of a sudden you have discharged these cells beyond the point of no return.
Even 10AH doesn't give much in reserve.
And heaven help anyone with an alarm fitted.

And all to save 10 pounds in weight. Surely going on a diet would save more in many cases?
 
do the math.

let's pretend we pull an average of 60 continuous amps on startup (which is correct, except the inrush spike, based upon my measurements)

7.5 ah/60 amps=7.5minutes of continuous cranking power. the inrush spike lasts only a FRACTION of a second, so we can ignore that here.

Or, lets say that per start, we draw an average of 100 amps (because it has a 200 amp inrush for a fraction of a second, then settles down to 60 for the rest of the start)

each start takes about 2 seconds, which equals about .00056 hours. .00056 hoursx100 amps = 56 miliamps drawn per start, allowing you 134 starts per charge at 7.5 AH capacity.

But let's slash those numbers into EIGHTHS and be ultra conservative, because in real life, we have heat and inneficiency to deal with. that's still nearly 1 minute of continuous cranking, or 17 starts. this is STILL EXCESSIVE.

In practice, i think cutting things into 8ths is too much, because that means we have an efficiency of 12.5%. If we do quarters (a little more reasonable) you see that 5ah is PLENTY.
 
So, what if your alternator flames out and you don't notice for an hour. The battery gets very weak. You try to start and it is a no go. And now your battery is below the safe lower limit. Then, in an attempt to get home you quick charge it or jumper cable it to a car.

Basically, what happens if you try to revive a dead pack?
I know that with normal LiPo cells this is a serious burn down the house type issue.

Also with liPo types heat is a killer to battery life. How are these in comparison since there will be lots of engine heat?
 
I have been wondering why these types of batteries are not so common as an aftermarket addon, are we missing something?
 
Your ECU wont let the bike start if the voltage is below a certain level. That level is ABOVE the minimum voltage for these cells. However, if you ride for hours with a dead alternator and you let the voltage get REAL low, then yes, it's probably toast.

These are not volitile like Lipos. The pack doesnt just suddenly go dead at 2.5 volts, it looses it's capacity because parts of the battery decompose. The lower the volts, the worse it gets. Eventually, It just wont take a charge, but it wont blow up. voltage drops caused by load spikes can safely drive these cells down to 2vpc with no harmful effects.

But the bottom line here with these cells, is they require a little bit more attention. They are higher performing, lighter weight, alternatives to OEM technology, but the cache is, they arent invincible.

These cells are not common aftermarket additions because they are BRAND NEW to the market. I imagine you will start seeing these as aftermarket options for hybrids in no time.
 
Spaceclam said:
Eventually, It just wont take a charge, but it wont blow up. voltage drops caused by load spikes can safely drive these cells down to 2vpc with no harmful effects.

Good to know.
 
Forgot to answer the engine heat question.

Obviously, heat is bad. Less is better. But i have taken the seat off my griso many times to plug in my PCV and found the battery, airbox and everything to be cool to the touch. It may be different on other bikes, but the battery tray in the griso is cooled by the intake.

It says the recomended high ambient temp for these cells is 60*C, or 140*F. In this spec sheet, the recomended numbers are much more conservative than the max numbers. IT doesnt give a max operating temp because that depends on load and duty cycle, but we should be just fine for any temps we see.
 
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