Copper Gasket Sources

[Tonerjockey]

Yo Bretheren and Sisteren,

I am looking for a source for copper head gaskets. Racing a '73 V7 Sport. Tired of puttin brand new gaskets in each time I R&R the heads.

I'd like to get .040" and .035".

Any experiences anyone would like to share?

Tanks,

Tonerjockey

 

[johnk]

I've used these on a few bikes over the years.
http://www.coppergaskets.us/
They're located in Arizona and Lani, the owner is a very nice guy to deal with.

johnk

 

[Tonerjockey]

Hey Johnk,

I'll give 'em a call.

Thanks!!!

Tonerjockey

 

[Tonerjockey]

I called 'em. Loni very nice on the phone.

The stock V7 Sport head gasket is about .040" I think. I ordered .032 and .023" and sent samples.

Hoping to increase my compression a bit. Will need to clay the pistons to check clearence Clarance.

Also ordered a set of .043" for the Eldo.

I'll post the results.

Tonerjockey

 

[Andy in NZ]

I had a local gasket maker here in NZ cut out 2 different copper head gaskets for a GS1100 I was racing. The 2 thicknesses allowed some variation in compression ratio.
I also had the barrells o-ringed (a must for high compression approx 16:1 on alcohol). I recommend this process for any high compression motor.
A few useful hints when you get yours. I was told to anneal them each time they come off, with a torch. I then assembled it all spraying both sides with VHT Copper Gasket spray...the actual name eludes my frail mind!!
They always stayed sealed and were resused many times, and never leaked from combustion chamber or oil galleries.
Try any local gasket maker.
Best of luck
Andy in NZ

 

[mtiberio]

why would you replace a good head gasket? when i was racing, I reused head gaskets until the inner metal ring began to disintegrate (and my race bikes never leaked oil). When I assembled my race motors, I always oiled my gaskets, so they would not stick when I pulled it apart. Also by using used head gaskets, you save at least one or two re-torque sessions as the gasket is pre-crushed. Do yourself, your wallet and your torque wrench a favor and start reusing those head gaskets.

Another tip, forget about those 12 rubber o-rings. never used em, never had a leak.

YMMV

 

[Tonerjockey]

Some good stuff here. Thanks.

re. copper, I've seen web sites that say don't anneal. We'll see what the manuf. of the gaskets I've ordered suggests. The wire is suggested by most makers too. I'll see what I get and go from there. One suggestion was that the depth of groove should allow no more than 20% of wire "showing" for gaskets under .024"...

Did you groove the heads or the cylinders? I have an extra set of fresh cylinders and only 1 set of worked heads. The heads were considerably more expensive in total than the cylinders. Cuttin' a groove on the cylinders seems to me to probably be the best route (heh heh).

re re-use, I've re-used head gaskets and discovered loose heads after 2 runs. Of course there are many reasons that this could be happening, and I'll be better able to track it down, hopefully, after the coppers arrive.

Since I am running custom, high compresion pistons, I need to clay and relieve them for any gasket thickness I wind up with. In LSR it's all about compression... so far.

Thanks for the input. I'll post results if and when they occur.

Tonerjockey

 

[Andy in NZ]

re. copper, I've seen web sites that say don't anneal. We'll see what the manuf. of the gaskets I've ordered suggests. The wire is suggested by most makers too. I'll see what I get and go from there. One suggestion was that the depth of groove should allow no more than 20% of wire "showing" for gaskets under .024"...

I was told copper work hardens and needs to be softened before reuse. Anyone got any other thoughts? Ill check on the wire thickness and amount to be left proud of the liner and Ill get back to you. The VHT spray was terrific stuff and it never had any issues and never leaked down above 4% with 16:1 and alcohol fuel.

Did you groove the heads or the cylinders? I have an extra set of fresh cylinders and only 1 set of worked heads. The heads were considerably more expensive in total than the cylinders. Cuttin' a groove on the cylinders seems to me to probably be the best route (heh heh).

Definitely the liner. Its renewable if required.

re re-use, I've re-used head gaskets and discovered loose heads after 2 runs. Of course there are many reasons that this could be happening, and I'll be better able to track it down, hopefully, after the coppers arrive.

I used larger diameter and higher grade studs into meticulously cleaned and tapped holes and a smear of anti seize.

Since I am running custom, high compresion pistons, I need to clay and relieve them for any gasket thickness I wind up with. In LSR it's all about compression... so far.

Get Kevin Camerons book "Sportbike Performance handbook" It details Cook Neilsons Ducati pistons and the theory behind the piston/ combustion (P15) and illustrates and elaborates on the workings and timing etc. A hearty read!!! Ive since seen a Foggy WSB Ducati 4V piston made into a trophy. The carbon burn pattern on the crown matches the Cameron model perfectly. Worth the effort!!!
Keep us posted
Andy in NZ:lol:

 

[Andy in NZ]

Just found some details. Vance and Hines used to recommend (back in the day) a small groove.035" into the liner to hold a .047" OD copper wire tapped in place. When my lners were being bored, we made up a tool to machine the groove . Take care to taper the ends and not butt fit them. Allow for alittle expansion but the seal is vital from the overlap. This with upgraded studs with cold rolled threads should hold the little suckers in place.
Good luck
Andy in NZ

 

[Tonerjockey]

Hey Andy,

Here's the anneal info from Copper Gaskets Unlimited... I'd attach the .pdf but that doesn't seem to be working for me right now.

Copper Gasket Annealing Instructions:

NOTE: Be sure to have a tub of water at room temperature that is big enough to immerse the gasket all at once. This needs to be ready so that when the gasket reaches the desired temperature, it can be immersed immediately. Please read the complete instructions prior to starting annealing process.

The purpose of annealing copper gaskets is to soften and temper the material so that it will seal well. If you have torn down your engine, and are re-using the copper gasket, you will have much better results if you take the time and effort to anneal it properly. Also, our gaskets are not annealed prior to shipping, and, although our copper is soft, sometimes it sets in storage either here or at suppliers and oxidizes, which hardens the copper. If the gasket appears to be oxidized (dull or darkened), we suggest you anneal it prior to initial installation.

Annealing process:

1. Use an oxygen/acetylene torch with a rosebud tip. Hang the gasket with a wire, keeping it away from any flammable surface to prevent burning yourself, your equipment or your shop. As evenly as possible, heat the gasket, using a figure eight pattern. Watch for the copper's changing colors: first stage, blue; second stage green; final stage, orange (which is molten). Heat it just to the orange stage. Making sure not to touch the hot metal (we suggest you use pliers or kitchen thongs) drop it in the water immediately. Attempt to have the flat surface of the gasket submerge all at once. Otherwise, the temper may vary. Your gasket is now annealed.

2. Prior to installation, the gasket needs to be cleaned. To clean the gasket, use a Scotch-Brite or an SOS pad. Scrub until gasket turns a pink color. Hang it back up and spray it off with brake cleaner, or you may also let it drip dry. It is now ready for sealer and installation.

COPPER GASKETS UNLIMITED, 7372 W TETHER TRAIL, PEORIA, AZ 85383
HOME / BUS (623) 561-8399
www.coppergaskets.us

 

[Tonerjockey]

Here's the installation info. I am posting this with the company's permission. Doesn't mention a wire but when I talked to Lani yesterday he mentioned that some big drag teams used them.

Copper Gasket Installation Instructions


While copper is an excellent gasket material, it does require special attention to achieve a long lasting seal. For best results, follow the installation instructions detailed below.

1. Check the fit of the gasket. If any dimensions are out of tolerance, don’t hesitate to notify us. We at Copper Gaskets Unlimited urge our customers to help us maintain our high standards as to the fit and design of our product.

2. Make sure all the sealing surfaces are very clean and dry. Once you are ready to install your CGU gaskets, be careful to touch only the edges. An oily fingerprint on the sealing surface can cause gasket failure.

3. When the surfaces are properly prepared, apply gasket sealer to both sides of your gasket only. We recommend Permatex Ultra Gray3294 sealer or Copper coat . Wait ten minutes for the sealer to cure.

4. Assemble the engine following OEM specifications, again making sure not to compromise the seal with oil or grease of any kind. During assembly, pay special attention to the condition of the threads on all nuts, bolts and studs. Dirt, rust
or other contamination can cause torque specs to be reached before proper bolt stretching occurs. Torque the head bolts to the recommended setting and in the proper sequences. After assembly, allow the sealer to fully cure for 24 hours, then start the engine and allow it to reach operating temperature. Then shut it down and recheck the torque on all the fasteners. When everything has again cooled, check the torque for a third time.

5. After the first time out with your machine, recheck the torque to be sure nothing has settled and lessened the pressure on your CGU gasket.

Follow these instructions, and your CGU gasket should last as long as the engine.


COPPER GASKETS UNLIMITED,7372 W. TETHER TRAIL, PEORIA, AZ. 85383
HOME / BUS (623) 561-8399
www.coppergaskets.us
check us out !!!

 

[Andy in NZ]

Great info re copper gaskets and annealing. Note the Copper Coat spray recommended. What did you think of the o-ringed barrels wire dimensions? Got them straight from VHR when I ordered my parts in the early 80's (thats BC...before children)

What did you think of the piston profile from Kevin Cameron? Have you read any of his works? He's pretty damn good. Probably forgotten more than I know. BTW I back the notion of spending time on the combustion chamber and process.

Re your racer, does it have to be stock or can you put in a decent airbox suitable for the large gulps it'll be taking?
Cheers
Andy in NZ:side:

 

[Tonerjockey]

Hey Andy,

Just now ordered Cameron's book (Amazon $9.95 US + 3.99 shipping. Thats almost 50% to ship... sheesh).

The dimensions of grooves and rings hasn't sunk in yet. Gotta get some wire and see how it feels... tacktile kinda guy doncha know.

One site I've read touts stainless wire and butt the ends square... I have some friends who are successful Land Speed, drag racers and Hot Rodders (geezers) that attend a Bonneville Breakfast on Saturday AM. I'll bring the subject up and see why I'm wrong about whatever I think regarding this. heh heh

Just ran the racer around Hwy 101 and one pipe sounds better than the other. Checking the legnths I was 2" short on the other pipe. Made up the diff and will irritate the neighbors with it tomorrow.hmy:

The class I'm in (production frame - production push rod engine) requires stock airbox and stock carb bodies for make, model and year. Doesn't mean I can't modify the insides I guess...B)

More later

Tonerjockey

 

[Andy in NZ]

Cool photo.
From hazy memory the groove is set back from the bore and in a place that allows it decent contact with the copper gasket. If the groove is .035 wide and deep, that gives an interference fit to tap the wire into the groove, and approx .012 proud above the deck to be squeezed into the copper gasket and give it the tight seal required.

The wire is not in any contaqct with the combustion chamber. Check with any drag racer that runs fuel or super/turbo charging, it used to be very common practice, Im sure it still is.

The wire I used was copper winding and shellaced, and the coating came off as it was installed in the groove in the liner.

I guess the dimensions are not overally critic so long as the following is achieved
1. the majority of the wire is tightly buried in the machined groove (trench) in the liner
2. there is enough above the deck to bite into the copper and seal the beasty.

What have you done to upgrade the studs/bolts that hold the head and barrel together? It may pay to get the size and grade upspecced for extra insurance.

I'm enjoying following the progress of your bike. Keep it going!!!:lol:

How much piston/head and piston/valve clearance is there? Is the crown uniformly clearanced from the head? I see what I assume is the twin plug dishes and valve reliefs. lovely finish BTW.:cheer:

 

[Tonerjockey]

Exh to piston = .100" Int/piston = .080

The piston is not evenly gapped to the head. I had the pistons made according to the stock head dimensions and then had the heads made...

I am in the works with J&E for pistons based upon the latest head characteristics.

re. studs et al, that's a good idea. My heads loosen after 2 runs and it very well may be the studs are stretching. I'll wait until the new pistons arrive and take appart the entire engine for the stud job. I've found that cleanliness is critical.

BTW all the specs I have say 30 ft/lbs head torque. Anyone do different?

Stock studs are 10mm. Did you go with 12mm? I may have interference with the top bolt...

I've found surface discharge racing plugs for this application and the next pistons won't have those plug dimples.

Gunna put the exhaust system on and wake up the neighborhood. Gunna weigh the bike with me scootching around for best aero.

Ciao,

Tonerjockey

 

[john zibell]

For head torque on the old round and square engines I've been using 35 lb-ft after discussions with one of Guzzi's USA tech people some years ago. In normal (street) usage I haven't seen any problems.

 

[Tonerjockey]

Thanks John. I'll give that a try.

Tonerjockey

 

[Andy in NZ]

Hi there
Exh to piston = .100" Int/piston = .080

The piston is not evenly gapped to the head. I had the pistons made according to the stock head dimensions and then had the heads made...

I am in the works with J&E for pistons based upon the latest head characteristics.

Wait until youve digested the Cameron book before you finalise your design. He give lots of good theory, all hard earned and paid for on the race track.

re. studs et al, that's a good idea. My heads loosen after 2 runs and it very well may be the studs are stretching. I'll wait until the new pistons arrive and take appart the entire engine for the stud job. I've found that cleanliness is critical. BTW all the specs I have say 30 ft/lbs head torque. Anyone do different?

My first guess would be the studs. there may be something wrong with the stockers (eg stretched or weakened or incorrectly installed) You are subjecting them to a task a little above their design, so studs above the stock requireemnts may be in order. Insurance I call it (especially when someone else is paying )
Stock studs are 10mm. Did you go with 12mm? I may have interference with the top bolt...
Any trusted good machinist shoud be able to get you a better grade of steel for the stud, at a size larger than stock but still bale to fit through the barrels without further machining.

Get the case end cold rolled threaded to match up and install in clean and chased holes with a mere wipe of anti-seize. They should be tight to install and require a stud tool. At the head end get a finer grade of thread ( eg metric fine or UNF or some other whizz bang micro techno wonder) and the nuts to match.

They need to be checked to ensure clearance for all other bits and bobs. Stock threads have been quoted to me at 70 to 85% thread contact/engagement/interference, a custom made one should get this much closer to the 100%.
The head torque will still be the same but all the bits will move less as you have stronger clamps holding it all together with a reduced suseptibility to flex or move.

I've found surface discharge racing plugs for this application and the next pistons won't have those plug dimples.

Gunna put the exhaust system on and wake up the neighborhood. Gunna weigh the bike with me scootching around for best aero

.
Take lots of time over the aero...its more cost effective to part the air and let it come back together with minimum disturbance than to pay for a bigger bang to drive you through the air.

Keep it going, from the land of the world's fastest Indian...I can't wait to hear about the worlds fastestsilly: ) Italian
Adios
Andy in NZ