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Cylinders look nice. What now?

Sporticus

Just got it firing!
Joined
Aug 25, 2013
Messages
23
Location
Western Massachusetts
I bought a '75 850T last summer and was never able to get it to run well. The right cylinder wouldn't fire at all. Checked all the obvious and a lot of people warned me about peeling chrome, as the bike had been sitting for a number of years. I finally had time today to remove the cylinder. To my untrained eye, it looks great! Can't feel any imperfections in the bore and there is minimal carbon buildup on the head and piston. I don't know if you you can tell from the photos, but does it look like these cylinders are already Nikasil coated. I was hoping to find a nasty mess, buy new cylinders, and ride off into the sunset.



 

john zibell

Moderator
Staff member
GT di Razza Pura
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
8,509
Location
Huntsville, AL
Looks like chrome bore to me. The thing is, if the chrome hasn't flaked off, it will at the most inconvenient time. Your current issue appears to be something else that needs to be sorted. The decision to make is to replace the cylinders and pistons now, or wait for the failure.
 

Amboman

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
309
Location
Rohrersville, MD
At present all of the US retailers of Gilardoni kits are sold out. I bought some from Stein-Dinse, but they too are now sold out. The next batch had been promised in "4 to 6 weeks", but that was 6 weeks ago. Rumor has it that Gilardoni isn't going to make any this year at all.

I'll be having the original cylinders replated in Nikasil by Millennium Technologies for my next customer project.
 

MotoWally

Tuned and Synch'ed
GT Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
24
Location
Bartlesville, OK
What about the Cycle Garden kits ? Are they still available ? Are they worth having, at almost $1k ? I am wanting to get started on my Eldo project (got a title- Yay !) Wondering if I should do all the puttering parts first, i.e., electrical, paint, brakes and shocks, fabrication, then worry about the engine.
 

MotoWally

Tuned and Synch'ed
GT Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
24
Location
Bartlesville, OK
Here's another thought.... What about having an aircraft cylinder reman company bore out old jugs, and re-chrome ? What are options with pistons after that ?
 

john zibell

Moderator
Staff member
GT di Razza Pura
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
8,509
Location
Huntsville, AL
MotoWally said:
Here's another thought.... What about having an aircraft cylinder reman company bore out old jugs, and re-chrome ? What are options with pistons after that ?

If bored out, better to go with Nikasil than chrome. You could go to 949cc and use stock Guzzi (G5, CA II, or CA III) pistons and rings.
 

john zibell

Moderator
Staff member
GT di Razza Pura
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
8,509
Location
Huntsville, AL
MotoWally said:
I found some cylinders from an 81 G5 1000, will those fit in the 72 case ? And the pistons are probably still readily available ? Yeah, I know, I'm gonna "bastardize" this thing anyway, if they fit, and it runs, I'm all the better, and not out $1350 for big bore kit from California-you-know-who.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-1000 ... ff&vxp=mtr

Which bike from 72? If an Eldorado, yes, if a V7 sport, I think (but not positive) the cylinders would need some machine work. For the V7 I think the stroke is different, and the notch may need modification as well as the sleeve to fit in the block.
 

MotoWally

Tuned and Synch'ed
GT Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
24
Location
Bartlesville, OK
This would be my '72 Eldo 850 "barn find". So this would be a good deal, getting these cylinders and maybe new pistons & rings ? I'll be all over that.

Then I can get started on the rest of the bike.
 

Amboman

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
309
Location
Rohrersville, MD
'81 was a crossover year - some had iron liners, some had Nikasil.

You will likely need to either bore the crankcase slightly or machine the "spigot" of the cylinders for them to fit into the crankcase.

Another thing to consider is balance. If the 88 mm pistons are heavier than the original 83 mm pistons, it would be best to have the crank balanced to match.

Personally, I don't find the miniscule performance increase worth all of the hassle and would just have the original Eldo cylinders replated in Nikasil. Only way the "big-bore" 88s make much difference is if you change the cam to something like a B10 and go with 36 mm carbs.

Just my opinion.
 

MotoWally

Tuned and Synch'ed
GT Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
24
Location
Bartlesville, OK
Amboman said:
'81 was a crossover year - some had iron liners, some had Nikasil.

You will likely need to either bore the crankcase slightly or machine the "spigot" of the cylinders for them to fit into the crankcase.

Another thing to consider is balance. If the 88 mm pistons are heavier than the original 83 mm pistons, it would be best to have the crank balanced to match.

Personally, I don't find the miniscule performance increase worth all of the hassle and would just have the original Eldo cylinders replated in Nikasil. Only way the "big-bore" 88s make much difference is if you change the cam to something like a B10 and go with 36 mm carbs.

Just my opinion.

Well, Charlie, I bought those cylinders, out of greed and impatience. Now you've given me more fuel for the fire. Where do you get a "B10" cam, and what carbs would you recommend ? Forgive me, I know you're probably a purist, but I have even considered putting a single carb on, ducted to both intakes, similar to a Weber.

I also remember some balancing tricks from the field, wonder if they still work ? I remember doing some shadetree balancing on a SB Mopar many moons ago, lightening up the new pistons and grinding the rods to match original spec so the crank wouldn't have to be balanced. Seemed to work fine, I learned that from an old engine builder/mechanic I worked for when I first started out, in the late 70's. That engine lasted for about 3 years, until the idiot let his cousin put a nitrous kit on it, and pushed the rods through the block.

Nothing about this bike is going to be purist. I am making my own wiring harness, using late model jap switches, relays in my own electrical box, late-model style lighting, so the engine is not going to be saved from any attempt to get this thing going, no matter what. I am doing this on a shoestring, my own labor in all the work, unless I just ~have~ to have something farmed out. Not trying to put anyone out of business, and I won't build another after this. Thanks for your input. I appreciate it. Robert
 

Amboman

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
309
Location
Rohrersville, MD
MotoWally said:
Well, Charlie, I bought those cylinders, out of greed and impatience. Now you've given me more fuel for the fire. Where do you get a "B10" cam, and what carbs would you recommend ? Forgive me, I know you're probably a purist, but I have even considered putting a single carb on, ducted to both intakes, similar to a Weber.

MG Cycle offers B10 regrinds: http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=426 , Delta Cam in Tacoma: http://deltacam.com/ may be able to regrind your cam to B10 specs. for less.

As for carbs, I prefer Dellorto PHF36s.

I don't consider myself a "purist".

I considered a single carb setup for an upcoming project (Cal II powered Ambassador sidecar rig), but found I had enough bits to build a set of Dellorto VHBs for it instead.
 

MotoWally

Tuned and Synch'ed
GT Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
24
Location
Bartlesville, OK
Sorry, Charlie, I wasn't trying to insult you by labeling you a "purist", just taking note of the good original-type resto work you do, according to your pictures on your website. I have been the same way on some projects in the past. Just not going that way today.

So, the jugs came in today, some wear, but they are clean, like they installed them, run it for a while, then took them off. He shipped them to me in what I'm guessing is the boxes they came in. Anybody up for decoding the part numbers for me ? they are 88MM bores, sleeved, and like was said, looks like I will have to mill out approx. .6 MM to make the jugs fit the case. Bottom of the jugs mikes out to approx. 1.2 MM larger than the old ones. Relief slots are the same size, same location. Other than that, looks like the same height as the old ones.
 

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Amboman

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
309
Location
Rohrersville, MD
Gilardonis have Nikasil bores, not iron liners, so he probably stuck the old cylinders he took off in the boxes the new cylinders came in.
 
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