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Dreaded Tonti Weave

I should get a set of those pegs for parking at Starbucks, but my "chicken strips" would blow it.

New bearings installed. The lower one was corroded badly. Long test ride today in the rain. Nice and smooth steering, but still an occasional sense of instability, so I think I will re-visit the slight increase in spring pre-load mentioned before.
Or: is there a reason to lower the forktubes in the triple clamps, rather than up the preload? With increased pre load, the forks never topped out the last time.
 
If you raise the fork tubes (more exposed above the top clamp) in the triple clamps it will quicken the steering. With new steering head bearings it is good to re-adjust after the first ride and everything has settled in. Also check that the swing arm pins are exposed equally. Sometimes if the front feels off, it is caused by the rear. What condition are your rear shocks in? Original? how many miles?
 
I was talking about lowering the tubes in the clamps (as suggested by Todd), or increasing pre load up front. That should theoretically slow my steering ( slightly more rake).
Swing arm was off last fall, and set up according to the WS manual.
Original shocks had been left off for the first owner who had lowered the bike. They now have 50K km on them. (85K on the bike)
My plan today is to partially disassemble the front end and check the bearings for "settling in", then add 1/2" to the preload spacers.
That gives me some wiggle room for moving the tubes down a tad also, at least as an experiment.
 
I've always had better handling with raising the tubes on Tonti bikes. The original shocks are marginal at best. With 50 K on them, I'd consider them shot. My recommendation is to invest in a good pair of rear shocks.
 
I have my forks raised 20mm through the top.No problem with bottoming out.Evidenced by the O ring i put around the fork tube to indicate maximum travel after each ride.A cable tie can be used.
My shocks are 350 long with only 15mm rider sag.
Down at the front,up at the back.Doesnt make any difference to stability either way.Lowering the front feels way better for steering.Raising it wont help.
Do you have a steering damper?
Do you have a screen fitted?
If you are saying that you feel some slight wobbleing or frame flex while riding in a straight line.This is quite normal in my experience.It gets worse as the tyres wear,but you say your Bt45,s are new.About 36psi front 42 rear is best.Lower pressures can increase instability.
Radials definately improve stability.

How does it handle around corners,sweepers at higher speeds?
Does it handle ok around slow corners and get progressively worse as the speed increases?
Thats what mine did.Cartridge emulators in the front,Nitron shocks,head stem bearings,radial tyres all helped improve stability,but some still remains.
You cant make a silk purse from a sow,s ear.

As John states,poor damping front or rear can increase this feeling of instability.Mainly while cornering.Poor rear shocks or worn tyre can make the problem feel like its coming from the front.
Cali,s are long and heavy bikes with relatively weak frames.
You will always experience some Tonti weave which is one of their endearing traits.
If it tries to buck you off or scares you silly.You may still have a problem.

Can you explain in more detail what riding conditions you feel instability and how bad it is.
 
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If your bike is the same as your profile picture?
Steering mounted fairing screens can add to instability a little but yours looks small.
Your panniers are mounted fairly rearward.More weight behind the rear axle can also contribute to instability.
Imo Cali,s have are rearward weight biased already.Place the weight of the rider back further than other Tonti bikes,like a Lemans.Add more weight at the rear by adding panniers,racks etc
You now have a much heavier bike(compared to many other Tonti,s)A longer frame.
With much more of that weight further away from the steering head in a frame designed in the seventies for a much lighter,shorter bike.
This is a recipe for increasing that wallowing feeling that is barely noticable on my Lemons.
It is what it is.
You can improve things,but unless it is trying to buck you off and scaring you silly.
No amount of mods or tinkering will fully solve this trait.
I accept and now enjoy the imperfections all Guzzi,s have.I think its this character that makes them addictive.
Try riding the latest Honzakyaduci whose performance will amaze you but have the charactor of a conservative politician on valium.
 
Today was a good day.
John, you were right, the bearings needed another adjustment after a long ride yesterday.
The front fork spacers are 179mm long. I increased that to 185mm (1/4"). It felt good. Less dive during braking, and solid in the corners and over bumps. I think I can now "raise" the tubes in the 3clamps to lower the front end slightly. although it steers light without much counter steering.
Shrek, yes that is my bike, rear sets, low bars, taller seat. I am now starting to understand the difference between the Tonti Weave and my head shake, a different issue, definitely caused by bad bearings. I can live with the weave after your explanation. I will now consider it solved, but the two of you have opened my mind to some experimentation, lowering the front, maybe higher tire pressure. The bags are empty 95% of the time, and I am not trying to turn this sweetheart into a road racer. It is my "winter bike", with a B-11 and a Buell XB12S for the summer months. However, and I think you would both appreciate this; if it came down to a choice of one, it would be tough to let this one go. This is what I fell in love with during the eighties (G-5/LM2). And Shrek, thank you for dedicating so much time to this issue. it has been very helpful.
 
I am glad your problem is solved.
It is always a pleasure to share experience with another Guzzi romantic.
I have gained much knowledge from others over the years and it is good to be able to give back.
Enjoy the Tonti weave on your beautiful island.
 
Hi Shrek, yes you are right up there with your helpfull knowledge........soooooo
I removed the rear wheel from my sport as it needs wheel bearings looked at.
It turns out only on bearing was knackered, & it's the one on the left, same side as side stand.
Delving into this a bit, why one side on low miles for age (22k miles). A friend suggested possible condensation in the centre hub, which if the bike has ever stood for some time, ends up running to the face of that bearing.
Bearings are sealed (both sides), but guess what...the bearing had rust stains on the inner face and there was condensation in the inner hub and rust staining including the spacer tube starting to rust that end.
Just replacing now ( didn't forget the hairdryer to heat the hub mainly the diff side bearing but good practice for all so as not to remove any hub parent metal); but would like to know how do you resolve this?
We did a long trip a while back at near zero temp in driving rain, and maybe that contributed - warm hub cooling down when we stopped.
I have just sprayed chain lube into the cavity & over the spacer hoping it will at least deter reaction of water/ metal with the film of sticky grease.
Not ideal but will do the job I think - brainwave - would a couple of those little satchels ( like you get in your new computer packaging and the like to absorb moisture) be a good idea to throw in?
- your invaluable thoughts.
 
Hi Shrek, yes you are right up there with your helpfull knowledge........soooooo
I removed the rear wheel from my sport as it needs wheel bearings looked at.
It turns out only on bearing was knackered, & it's the one on the left, same side as side stand.
Delving into this a bit, why one side on low miles for age (22k miles). A friend suggested possible condensation in the centre hub, which if the bike has ever stood for some time, ends up running to the face of that bearing.
Bearings are sealed (both sides), but guess what...the bearing had rust stains on the inner face and there was condensation in the inner hub and rust staining including the spacer tube starting to rust that end.
Just replacing now ( didn't forget the hairdryer to heat the hub mainly the diff side bearing but good practice for all so as not to remove any hub parent metal); but would like to know how do you resolve this?
We did a long trip a while back at near zero temp in driving rain, and maybe that contributed - warm hub cooling down when we stopped.
I have just sprayed chain lube into the cavity & over the spacer hoping it will at least deter reaction of water/ metal with the film of sticky grease.
Not ideal but will do the job I think - brainwave - would a couple of those little satchels ( like you get in your new computer packaging and the like to absorb moisture) be a good idea to throw in?
- your invaluable thoughts.
Hi Shrek, yes you are right up there with your helpfull knowledge........soooooo
I removed the rear wheel from my sport as it needs wheel bearings looked at.
It turns out only on bearing was knackered, & it's the one on the left, same side as side stand.
Delving into this a bit, why one side on low miles for age (22k miles). A friend suggested possible condensation in the centre hub, which if the bike has ever stood for some time, ends up running to the face of that bearing.
Bearings are sealed (both sides), but guess what...the bearing had rust stains on the inner face and there was condensation in the inner hub and rust staining including the spacer tube starting to rust that end.
Just replacing now ( didn't forget the hairdryer to heat the hub mainly the diff side bearing but good practice for all so as not to remove any hub parent metal); but would like to know how do you resolve this?
We did a long trip a while back at near zero temp in driving rain, and maybe that contributed - warm hub cooling down when we stopped.
I have just sprayed chain lube into the cavity & over the spacer hoping it will at least deter reaction of water/ metal with the film of sticky grease.
Not ideal but will do the job I think - brainwave - would a couple of those little satchels ( like you get in your new computer packaging and the like to absorb moisture) be a good idea to throw in?
- your invaluable thoughts.
Also with the last thread, I also dropped my Mk5 LeMans so that 4 grooves of the forks protruded ( good way to check equal length protrusion) thru the top clamp and put Showa resovoir shocks ( yes I know - Not European but Very Good shocks & cheap to source ) that were 330 eye to eye I think, but gave just a bit more preload to help raise the rear. Result crisp handling with no Tonti weave.
 
Hey Bigbear
With rusty wheel bearings,age seems to be more of a factor than mileage.
I avoid river crossings and high pressure cleaners.
Bearing spacers, I remove the rust and coat them with fish oil.Available in a spray can or tin from auto and hardware shops.Its seems to be a good long term rust inhibitor.
I have also turned up some lighter ones out of plastic during my anal weight loss program.
I give wheel bearings a smear of water resistant(marine)grease both sides to help seal them and prevent rust.
I dont think i would put silica packs in the hubs as they would probably turn to dust and destroy the bearings.

Yep.Raising the forks on my Lemans 1000 helped lighten the steering with no negative effects.
I raised mine so 20mm is poking through the top.Cali and Daytona are also raised 20mm.
I have tried 25mm but was getting close to running out of fork travel with my 0.8 kg/mm linea springs.
Whatever you try,check how much travel you have left after each ride using an o ring or cable tie around one fork leg,to avoid bottoming.
I also like prefer longer shocks.

A good weight loss program also sharpens up the handleing and engine response.But can be expensive and/or time consuming.

Another tip ,to save fork seals is to pry the dust seal up.Soak a small piece of soft rag in fork oil and wrap it around the fork leg.Press the dust seal back down.Replace with a clean oiled rag periodically.This lubes the outside of the fork seal,the fork tube and gathers dust and debri which could otherwise make its way into the seal.
Gators worked well for a while too,but i got sick of the ugly factor.
 
Hey Shrek thanks for that.
Yup I sprayed the spacer & the inner hub with chain lube and packed marine grease on the outside shoulders of the spacer nearest the bearing faces, so we have the same idea & I agree re the silica.
Funny I never ever have had trouble with Le Mans fork seals, only the 1100. In fact as the forks had scour marks, I had the fork faces machine skimmed down, ss metal sprayed and machined back to correct o.d. The cost was half that of re chroming the two forks and apart from being dull instead of shiny I know they will last forever.
Are the upside down forks such as 1100 injected just as susceptible to dirt ingress since they are down low?
I think I will use your trick on the Centauro as a safety precaution.
About weight, if the Centauro has plastic panels and tank, ( not considering carbon cans), is it lighter than say the 1100 or an RS?
 
Shrek, when doing this steering head bearing check it helps to disconnect all the cables to the bars. I have found that they will rub here and there and interrupt the zen moment.
 
Yes i agree,but i am lazy and have done it enough to find the Zen inbetween tight spots:)
 
Can I jump in here and ask a question about Tonti Weave? I'm a new 850 T-3 owner and I notice some wobble in the bars while cornering.
 
Hi
Its a term that i use to describe a wobble that develops while cornering and gets progressively worse as speeds increase and feels like the frame is bending or flexing.Which it probably is.
It is not a professional diagnosis.Just a term i used to describe what most Tonti,s feel like in certain conditions.
Wobble in the bars is a fairly broad description which could be caused by many things.
Suspension,tyres(what type,wear,pressures) front or rear.Head stem bearings,steering damper etc
If you would like some advice its best to supply as much information about your bike as possible and i will try to help ,along with many others i presume.
Tyres,brand,model,wear,pressures
Suspension,describe what you have.Standard forks and shocks or aftermarket,condition etc
Bear in mind that all Tonti models exhibit these traits to some degree but can always be improved depending on how much time and effort you want to expend.
 
Can I jump in here and ask a question about Tonti Weave? I'm a new 850 T-3 owner and I notice some wobble in the bars while cornering.
Same advice as you've read above. Start with the steering head bearings, and also check the swingarm bearings for tightness and wear (often this can be the source), after which suspension, tires and corrected geometry via the forks (and fork brace) will turn it into an amazing ride. Additionally, the left swing arm bearing has a tendency to go dry as there is nothing to prevent grease migration. Centering the swing arm also helps. This is done by having the same amount of pin exposed on each side. If you can get them within 0.2mm it gets even better. Don't be fooled into thinking Tonti's design is anything more then amazing for the time (past and present; RadicalGuzzi.com).
 
Very interesting read here. As I am getting serviced a T5 I have never ridden, I am trying to ferret out the quirks before I swing a leg over it. I am probably needlessly worrying myself, but do appreciate the best performance practices. I am starting with new tires, shocks, fork springs and think perhaps new stem bearings are worth installing due to age alone. Having ridden a Harley touring bike for years, a minor wobble shouldn't scare me.
 
You are certainly on the right track to having a good handling Tonti.
I would definately replace the head stem bearings.These bearings being in good condition is critical to smooth steering and solid handling.Often overlooked or forgotten about.
Good quality damping with the correct weight springs will dampen out the bumps.
If you want to make it great,make those new tyres Radials.
Welcome to the Guzzi experience.
 
You guys are giving me a lot of food for thought. When I got my CalVin the front end felt flighty or I guess vague. I raised the forks 0.5" (13mm) which helped immensely. Should I go for 20mm? I would think the bike has a rear weight bias with the bags and crash bars around them. Since then I upgraded my suspension (thanks Todd!) and the bike handles very nicely. Just put some Avon radials on and got them scrubbed in. So far very nice, and will let you know after my long summer trip how they perform. Could be the final piece in putting the handling all together. By the way, I don't know if it's new or not but Bridgestone has the A40 tire. It looks like it's based on the Battle wing but appears to be 100% street oriented. it's under their dual sport tire thread.
 
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