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Ducati Sued

Thanks for posting!

I posted a link asking about Ethanol Impact on Plastic tanks after I read about the Ducati fuel tank issue.

https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/topic.html?f=160&t=5624&p=42283&hilit=ethanol#p42283

Some v11 Sport folks were reporting dimpling (not to be confused with the suction issue) and discussions pointed to the use of ethanol in fuel.

Mike H from MPH put a post up on one of the websites pointing to ethanol as the culprit.

No report signs of damage on my 2007 Griso tank yet.
 
Aren't V11 tanks metal?

The Norge tank is made by Acerbis, and it's supposed to withstand up to at least 10% of ethanol.

Come to think of it — why sue a manufacturer if a government introduces a new fuel; didn't Ducati warn about the possible issues?
 
Having had a Ducati sport classic, and having had the tank replaced a couple of times prior to selling it, I know that the most problematic of Ducati's tanks are also made by Acerbis. They appear to have a very low tolerance to ethanol.
 
My Norge is on its second tank. First showed signs of simpling and malformation. MPH got it replaced under warranty. This newer tank -- which I understood, perhaps incorrectly, had been "treated" for this issue -- suffers from dimpling, too. Sigh.

Bill
 
Any idea how big the ethanol percentage is you have in your tank on average, Bill?
 
If you don't want the aggravation of having to get them replaced periodically, there are a lot of reports on Ducati forums that Caswell tank sealer pretty much cures the problem. There's a bike painter in Los Angeles who has done a lot of tanks with this, and says there's been no expansion problems after his treatments.
 
Just finished reading an article in "Popular Mechanics" and there is a push to up it to 20% after the 15% increase. On the upside there is in the far future, to have gas pumps where you can "dial in" your percentages.
All this is because the corn lobby in the US is a powerful one IMHO.
 
Hey guys,

I just bought a V11 LeMans and am concerned about the plastic tank damage. Is it even worth trying to determine whether a particular fuel provider is better than another (Shell, Mobil, etc.), or all they all pretty much using the same ethanol percentage? That's a shame thinking about all the older vehicles that will have their fuel systems vulnerable because of this issue.

-Derek
 
They have been using 10% ethanol in parts of the US for a long time without much issue. I live in one of the areas that was using it when other parts of the country wasn't. I have never had an issue except for my Griso suffered the same fuel line everybody else's Griso did. That seemed to have been a case of using a fuel line that was not designed to be submerged and not an ethanol issue.
Last I heard the talk about increasing the percentage to 15% involves having multiple fuel grades where you could CHOOSE to use the 25% of continue to use the 10% fuel. If they wen't higher, say to 20% then it woulds also have to involve a choice.
As of yet, aside from the issues with water absorption, there is yet to be any solid issues with 10% ethanol for road use (most of it is people blaming the ethanol because it is one of the few additives in gasoline that they know the name of, despite the fact that there are a lot of additives in gasoline and any one of them could be to blame )and if it is the ethanol then the fault lies with the maker of the tank and not ethanol as the tank was, by law, supposed to be made the withstand ethanol.
If you are worried and do not trust that you fuel tank is made to with stand the fuel it is supposed to hole then it is a rather simple procedure to seal it using the Caswell tank sealer.
And yes, as the 10% limit is a max limit and not a minimum, it is possible for one makers fuel to have less then anothers, but it may have more of another additive that turns out to be harder on the plastic tank then the ethanol you were trying to avoid.
 
Well, I don't know what's different with the ethanol they're adding here in the E10 fuel, but it's a fact that *all* manufacturers have done thorough compatibility testing, and some (among which Yamaha) are warning their buyers NOT to use the stuff, but the more expensive SP98 instead. Oh, and as I already mentioned, the potential issues are serious enough that Germany has reversed its decision to introduce the stuff, and is back on E5...

I guess it's one of the real cases of YMMV :dry:
 
And for how long have those compliance requirements existed, and at what percentage?
 
The percentage has been 10% and I don't remember exactly how long but off hand I would say before 1995. It started out as a seasonal/optional thing and then it became a year round required thing, some time in the early 2000's I think. They also used it here back in the 70's during/after the oil crisis.
And they are talking now about raising the percentage to 15% but that would likely be as a choice, a grade of fuel that contained more ethanol. Some predict doom and gloom over this but I personally find it laughable. If a manufacturer knows that ethanol is being mixed into the fuel and it designs it product to only meet the bare minimum currently in use with no thought towards the day when the percentage goes up, that is stupid. Particularly when you can easily build your motorcycle or car to run on 85% or more ethanol. That is just short-sightedness. Poor planning.
Now if you want to talk about the poor energy efficency efficiency of ethanol from corn, well I am not sold on it being a good idea. But as I said, some areas in the US (including where I live) have been using it for years and as a result I find the panic about it silly.
But if you are worried about ethanol (or realistically any additives) in your fuel causing issues with the plastic your fuel tank is made of then seal your inside of your tank.
 
Guzzimoto,

It's wonderful, and a bit strange, to hear the voice of reason on occasion. I grew up in NW Indiana and 10% ethanol has been the norm in fuels there since the mid 80's. I too have to wonder what new additive has been introduced which is giving people fits.

Regardless of the shouting ethanol is not a new additive and if the issues are new then I believe the ingredient that is causing them are new as well.
 
It's good to see that there may be no worry at all, but then why do some of the biggest manufacturers warn against E10? I find it hard to believe that the hardware of the machines sold across the pond would be so different. Unless it's all a complot to incite people to buy new vehicles (something which wouldn't surprise me at all)?
 
I have no idea.
There are people in this country who will tell you that ethanol is bad and that it caused a problem for them, but they do not KNOW that ethanol caused their problem they are assuming it was the ethanol as that is the only additive in their gasoline that they know the name of.
I am of the mindset that if ethanol was a problem that you would see issues with it consistently, and you don't. Some people have issues while others don't. Those that have issues say it is the ethanol, but they don't really know.

Yeah, ethanol has been here for long enough that I don't remember when it started. I do remember using it in the mid '90's, before that I am not sure.
 
The concerns here are mostly about fuel lines that might expand and seals that might fail, as far as I remember, and in both cases because they are supposedly not made to withstand ethanol levels higher than 5%.
I've avoided the stuff until now, first because I wanted to wait for Piaggio's standpoint, but now because indeed I consider it an anomaly. The arguments on emissions reduction are flawed, fuel consumption goes up (I presume pinging too) as do food prices because of resource competition.
 
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