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Evap removal from V7III

Discussion in 'V7/V85/V9 Reference Topics/Recalls' started by Godfrey, Oct 18, 2017.

  1. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    I took some pictures while working on disabling the evap can yesterday. Hopefully this will help someone out there... :

    Illustrated Procedure:

    - remove seat
    - remove left side panel (three bolts)
    - remove starter cover (two bolts)
    - locate vacuum tap line from manifold to canister under the gearbox
    evap-001.jpg

    - cut vacuum line and block it (I glued an aluminum slug in place)

    Follow the line and cut it in a convenient place, then block it ... particularly the upstream side that comes from the inlet manifold.​

    evap-002.jpg

    - locate breather line with valve connected to canister
    - cut breather line above the valve and below at the canister inlet​

    evap-003.jpg

    evap-004.jpg

    - leave the breather line open ended behind the starter ... put a filter on it if you worry about environmental dust getting into the tank (but it ain't going to happen... :)

    - replace starter cover
    - replace side cover
    - replace seat
    Hope that's clear ... ask if you have any questions.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2017
  2. GT-Rx®

    GT-Rx® Administrator Staff Member

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    Thanks for posting Godfrey.

    A few notes to add...
    • Above applies to all '13-15 V7s, however the '16 V7 II has the evap can in between the intake manifold, aft of the engine. All else is still valid.
    • If you plan on leaving the evap can in place... Instead of cutting the (tank breather) tip over valve line and removing it, I highly recommend gutting the valve by popping it apart, or installing a fitting that allows the vapors to flow into the canister if you don't want any fuel smells in your garage. If you leave vented to open air, be aware that fuel will flow from this line while the tank is topped off at any sudden stop or side-standing of the bike.
    • If you remove the evap can and care about the smell, I am working on making a nice small inline filter that will help with fumes. I will put it online when I have it well tested.
     
  3. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Hmm.

    I didn't notice any fuel spilling or fuel smell after I topped off the tank last evening. The bike was on the side stand at the gas station and again in my garage before I put it into its parking spot. The driveway down into my garage is pretty steep so I have to use the brakes there pretty hard too...

    I'll keep an eye on it, I imagine it could happen in certain conditions. I've had it happen on other bikes that were not designed with an evap system like this too, particularly if I over-filled the tank. I like that the Guzzi has a nice little cage in the tank filler that gives you an indication of when you're at the full point.

    I'll probably get your filter anyway ... it's a good idea no matter to filter all vents and such.
     
  4. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Addendum:

    Chatting with a mechanic at the dealership yesterday about how my evap canister has 'fallen off' ... :) ... he said to be sure that when I remove the no longer needed vacuum line:

    "... Don't just slip one of those rubber vacuum caps on and leave it at that. Any backfire from the engine and it could just pop off, leaving you stranded unless you can figure another way to seal the hole. It's best if you can unthread the vacuum tap and block it with a bolt and some sealant. A vacuum cap fitted with some sealant and a tight metal retaining clip is another solution that works. Actually, what you've got in place now works pretty well too because a backfire has some flexible hose to fill before exerting pressure on the blocking slug, that makes it less likely to blow off. ..."
    Fun fun fun.
     
  5. TimmyTheHog

    TimmyTheHog Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

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    Maybe I am missing something...but what is the purpose of removing the starter cover?...

    then again, I have a stone, so I don't know if there are any differences in terms of covers...o.O
     
  6. roadscum

    roadscum Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    And..... what's the advantage of disabling the evap system???

    Paul
     
  7. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Removing the starter cover allows much better access to the hoses and other bits of the evap system. It's only two bolts ... much easier to remove and replace it when you're done than to work around its obstruction.

    The primary advantage of disabling the evap system is to eliminate the three problems it causes: the intake leak that happens when the regulator valve malfunctions (which destabilizes the idle and throws the intake mixtures off), and the destruction of the fuel tank and pump that can happen when the regulator valve malfunctions and applies full engine vacuum to the gas tank.

    If you really don't want to disable the evap system, and I can understand that desire, the thing to do is to figure out a significantly more reliable and effective regulator valve setup to eliminate these problems. The amount of vacuum being applied to the evap can has an influence on the air-fuel mixture, the idle speed, and the amount of vacuum being applied to the tank, so once you find a reliable valve that doesn't constantly fail and applies the correct amount of vacuum to allow the intake to scavenge the fumes properly, you than have to put the bike on a dynamometer and develop the best fueling map for the ECU so that the engine runs properly.

    I actually would have preferred to leave the evap system in place, but when the idle started going wonky and I felt the amount of vacuum that the tank had in it, I changed my mind and decided it posed a serious danger to the health of the engine and tank.
     
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  8. roadscum

    roadscum Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    In my 55+ years of riding and ownership of more then 55 differeent motorcycles I've never encountered a problem caused by the evap system nor have I ever heeed of anyone else encountering a problem. Maybe I'm just a lucky guy.

    Paul
     
  9. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Well, Paul, I've also been riding a long time (since 1975) and had a lot of motorcycles over the years (about 80 in total). This 2017 V7III Racer, however, is the very first motorcycle of all of those that actually has an evaporative emissions system.

    ... And the evap system's vacuum regulator valve failed nearly immediately. The gentleman at Piaggio/Moto Guzzi in Italy who had to program the engine's control computer (ECU) around its foibles told me, personally, that it was a POS and should be removed if possible.

    From what I read here and on other motorcycle forums, this is not an isolated instance of problems caused by this system.

    There's a first time for everything. :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  10. roadscum

    roadscum Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Many on my bikes past and present have had evap systems, and my cars to. Never had an issue, never read of an issues on the many forums and blogs I visit regularly. My nemisus was a failed fuel filter within one week and 1200 miles of taking delivery on a V7 III. Sorry to hear you were bitten. What was the cause of the evap failure you experienced?

    Paul
     
  11. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Oh I hear ya. I’d have left it in place if I didn’t think it put my engine and fuel tank at risk. Evap systems in cars are a proven good thing, never seen any point to removing one.

    But when I can feel the tension on the tank’s sides and that great suck of air when I open the cap, I know somethings not right.

    I heard about the fuel filter stuff... PITA. But like with all machines: they break, we fix, we move on. Sorry you had to deal with it.
     
  12. JACoH

    JACoH Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Lived with a gal in Sacramento in the 1980's, came out to the garage one day and her Yamaha Virago gas tank was sucked in to the frame. That was when they were learning about emission controls.
     
  13. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    You’re inspiring me to think of my own horror stories...

    I had an Alfa Romeo Spider that came up with a clogged EVAP system on the way home from Reno, NV about a decade and a half back. The result of being at high altitude when the EVAP clogged meant maximum vacuum in the fuel tank ... when I got back to sea level and rolled into the garage, it sputtered and died. I did some checking ... no fuel flowing. I called my mechanic, he took the cover off the gas tank. It was crumpled like a used foil candy wrapper.

    “Well, whatever fuel pump you once had ... I can’t figure out how I’d even get it out of that mess. ...1” We had to cut the tank off its mounting points to get it out of there. Couldn’t salvage a single piece of it.

    This sort of problem is a rarity, for sure. Luckily, since that car was an amalgam of three Spiders I had taken apart to build one really nice one, I had a couple of spare fuel tanks and all the various bits of plumbing that had been destroyed. Luckily including a spare Bosch EFI fuel pump and regulator assembly... that would have been pricey to replace! :)
     
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  14. roadscum

    roadscum Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    "Well that sucks.......

    Paul
     
  15. Trout

    Trout GT Reference

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    When charcoal canisters on cars were first out many were mounted up front, passenger side fender well under/around headlight.
    The "old timers" who "topped off" the tank could flood the canister with raw fuel.
    Hard starting, black smoke, backfiring were all symptoms.
     
  16. JACoH

    JACoH Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    OK, here is a question...whilst performing the above steps to the hoses, why not just cap the breather inlet on the intake manifold, rather than peg the hose farther down the line?
     
  17. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Two reasons:

    Convenience... I didn’t have in stock a suitable vacuum cap and retaining clamp that would secure it in the event of a backfire.

    Access... to get to the vacuum tap and do a clean job requires lifting or removing the tank so I can get my hands in there.

    Cutting and plugging the line with a glued-in billet slug was an effective, ten minute job. The line to the slug is long enough to expand and absorb backfire energy too so until I have the moment to remove the line and screw in a solid plug, it will do. :)
     
  18. JACoH

    JACoH Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    OK, thanks, I did the same but sliced my finger trying to get the hoses onto the slug.
     
  19. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    I eased the slug into the hose with a coating of WD40, then quickly grabbed both sides with two pair of pliers and pulled them together. The WD40 effectively melts the rubber inside the hose and glues it to the slug that way.

    I then bloodied my calf again by scraping it across Racer's very sharp footpeg ... sigh. Really do have to stop working around the motorcycle with shorts on!
     
  20. roadscum

    roadscum Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Ahhh, now I get it..... is an Italian thing that happened long long ago ago in a far away place...

    Maybe I shoud switch to drum brakes cause I had issues with the very early disk brakes, I hear balloon tires wire a real pita when 1st introduced, anyone know where I can find a set of solid rubber donuts for my bikes... :( ......:happy:.......:nod:

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
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