Extended Oil Change Intervals - Yea or Nay?

[youcanrunnaked]

In the 8V Failure Info thread, I suggested that for anyone concerned about premature valvetrain wear, perhaps changing the oil at 3,000 or 4,000 miles (and adding a ZDDP additive), instead of waiting to 6,000 miles, was a good idea. For reference purposes, I cited a White Paper on the subject of extended oil changes that I received from an engineer with whom I have been corresponding.

I should have known that this modest proposal would get that thread sidetracked on the issue of the value of extended oil change intervals. By "extended oil change intervals," I mean, generally, intervals longer than the "3,000 miles or six months" that was typically recommended by most engine manufacturers until a few years ago. In an effort to keep the 8V Failure Info thread on track, I'm starting this thread for anyone who wants to discuss the issue of extended oil changes.

The proposition, as argued by an engineer (not me), is that even with today's better-made engines and synthetic oils, the old 3,000 mile oil change interval is still a good rule of thumb, if you are concerned about minimizing engine wear.

Several posters quickly challenged that notion. So, is changing oil at 3,000 miles a good idea, or a waste of money and resources?

For anyone interested in reading the Paper I was referring to, i have uploaded it to Google Documents, and you can view it by clicking here:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... MzZl&hl=en

Have at it!

 

[Rafael]

Ney.

I change mine between 3k and 4.5k depending on the length of an upcoming trip. If the odo is at 3k and I have a 1k ride coming up I'll leave it but if the trip is 2k - I'll change it. I made this decision after leaving the oil in the recommended 6k in my Breva found the oil was dark and stinky. I know - real scientific. :dry:

I also change the gear box and final drive at 5 - 6k not recommended 12k+. A friend pointed out that these don't have filters, the quantity is small and the effort little.

 

[Brian UK]

So, as I stated in the other thread, that paper is just one man's thought.
Why is it then that ALL manufacturers are extending the service intervals in their engines, and the engines are lasting longer than ever before if this one person is so right?
I note that the manufacturers of my car don't specify any oil change interval for their gear boxes, merely a level check, yet they are some of the most reliable around. My last one was still going strong at over 500k miles.

 

[Mi_ka]

Nay-nay for hot working air/oil cooled engines,
Nay for aircooled engines in usual spirited working conditions,
Maybe for cool and yawn usage of air cooled,
probably Yea for liquid cooled depending on usage conditions,
Yea for mild highway use of liquid cooled engines.

 

[draidt]

There is probably no one more Anal about oil, type of oil and usage intervals then I am. In 43 years of operating every and all kinds of 4 cycle engines ( Autos, Cycles and Commercial lawn mower engines ) I have NEVER had a Oil related failure or breakdown. I also have NEVER followed the recommended manufactures change interval always less and most times half and always the best oil and grade available at the time. Thank you Craig for the link, I have ordered the ZDDP additive and will use it in my 8V Griso and 2V Guzzis and also in my Commercial flat tappet mower engines as well. Wasted money ? I'll be the judge and so far history has proved me correct. The equation changed when the Government started mandating what the specifications HAVE to be to meet EPA standards.

 

[Corn Oil Kid]

I like Dan offten don't follow mfg rec when it comes to oil changes. But unlike Dan, I usually go longer than recomened, and though I don't yet have the 43 years of motor operations Dan does, I have NEVER had a oil related failure or breakdown.

However, I do follow Guzzi's recomendation to change out the motor oil every 6250 on my Breva, and I only use AGIP 10w60, my Guzzi's are the exception to normal longer than recomend changes.

As to your quesion

 

[youcanrunnaked]

So, as I stated in the other thread, that paper is just one man's thought.
Why is it then that ALL manufacturers are extending the service intervals in their engines, and the engines are lasting longer than ever before if this one person is so right?
I note that the manufacturers of my car don't specify any oil change interval for their gear boxes, merely a level check, yet they are some of the most reliable around. My last one was still going strong at over 500k miles.

1. The Paper is not "one man's thought," but rather, a collection of studies and other evidence, leading to a conclusion.... which you would know, if you had read it.

2. The basis for, and effects of, extended oil change intervals, is discussed at length in the Paper...which you would know, if you had read it.

3. Gearboxes do not put oil through the stresses of the internal combustion process, which the Paper explains is the key factor in reducing the useful life of oil, thereby rendering your analogy pointless... which you would know, if you had read it.

You didn't read it, did you?

I am not saying that the Paper is correct. However, it seems to me that if you are going to argue against an engineering study of a subject, you should: (1) read it; and (2) oppose it with something more than anecdotal evidence and "seat of the pants" logic.

 

[Mi_ka]

A.
These guys say they did 51000 miles with "two or maybe three" oil changes before complete teardown on a Yamaha 1200 XTZ. No significant wear found:
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=613
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=611
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=612
In my opinion, tip nr.one: Water cooled tuned down engine (for a water cooled).
Tip nr. two: The oil was not left much time to oxidize.

B.
Thread title "Yea or Nay?" suggests reporting personal position on ""Extended Oil Change Intervals", not putting up "white paper data" to convince opposition. In my eyes it is more of a "poll thread". So maybe even (A.) I put above is also out of topic.

C.
If we are talking many hundrends of thousands of miles of engine life extending a vehicle's lifetime into an expensive museum collectible for my children, then too often oil changes are just a waste for me: I do not have any children neither plan to. Particularly if I just farted around on a XTZ1200 or similar kind of vehicle instead of thrashing around a G1200.
On the other hand, if I was thrashing around a G1200 I would change oil at around 1500-3000kilometers (1000-2000 miles) always depending of use or even after each track day or similar use.
Maybe even add this XYZ additive you suggest as I am scared of all this tappet saga grey zone -
thankgod maybe that I cannot afford one :S

 

[youcanrunnaked]

B.
Thread title "Yea or Nay?" suggests reporting personal position on ""Extended Oil Change Intervals", not putting up "white paper data" to convince opposition. In my eyes it is more of a "poll thread".

So, is changing oil at 3,000 miles a good idea, or a waste of money and resources?
For anyone interested in reading the Paper I was referring to, i have uploaded it to Google Documents....
Have at it!

Mi_ka, I welcome all contributions on this topic. However, I thought that from what I wrote, above, the purpose of this thread was clear. It's not a poll; I am interested in evidence and reasoned opinion. Your post certainly fits that description. Thanks.

 

[Brian UK]

There is probably no one more Anal about oil, type of oil and usage intervals then I am. In 43 years of operating every and all kinds of 4 cycle engines ( Autos, Cycles and Commercial lawn mower engines ) I have NEVER had a Oil related failure or breakdown. I also have NEVER followed the recommended manufactures change interval always less and most times half and always the best oil and grade available at the time.

I can equal your 43 years and more, not that this means anything of course. I have also never experienced any oil related breakdown. The difference between us is that I have never shortened the oil change interval from that given in any maintenance schedule. What does this prove? No more than your experience does really.

To be honest I don't care if anyone wants to change their oils every 1000 miles, it's their money.

 

[charlie b]

An interesting paper and a long discussion that had very little real data in it. Most of the paper is how people use oil life to determine change interval instead of engine life (a valid point). He also briefly mentioned using oil analysis as a means to determine oil change interval, also a good point.

His cost comparisons were lacking as he only used oil cost and not the cost of an oil change. Big difference if you are using a dealer for service. Minor if you do it yourself.

Actually, the only real data related to engine life was the Cummins diesel test. And that seems to be only a single test. I could not find the reference Cummins document so don't know if this was a single enginge on a test stand, two different trucks out on the road, or what. So, without any further information would be hard to tell if the test is conclusive or not.

I too have had extended oil change intervals on most of my cars as soon as they were out of warranty. Example. My Dodge Minivan (85 model) had 120,000mi on it when sold. After the 36k warranty was up it went 25k mi between oil changes (Mobil 1). No issues with the vehicle.

Most of my vehicles I go around 10k between changes. Have never had an oil related failure.

Well, except when my son didn't put oil in his truck

FYI, I do change oil more often in the bikes. Mainly because I believe air cooling puts more stress on the lubricant.

I wish I had a copy of the Ford engineering bulletin from the 80's when they used Mobil 1 on their test stand. Short story, they put Mobil 1 in a 460 V8 and ran it for 100k (simulated) miles and tore the engine down. It had oil changed at 3k interval. All parts were within new spec. The statement was they could have put the parts back on the assy line. So, they wondered what it would do if stressed. They reassembled it and ran it for another 200k without changing the oil, only the oil filter (every 3k miles). At the end of the 300k miles there was still very little wear and all engine performance was within new engine spec.

So, two different tests, two different results. Oh, and also disproves your author's statements about older engines needing more frequent oil change intervals.

FWIW, I don't care what anyone else does for oil changes. Just don't base your opinion on only one article.

 

[Mi_ka]

Just pointing that Mobil1 of yesterdecade is more "synthetic" than current Mobil1 due to the legal re-invention of the word "synthetic". Nevertheless, I think it would take radical thermal extremes to assess the difference of synthetic to "synthetic" oils typically not found away from racetracks - just guessing though.