Griso 8V going nuts?

[Waiski]

My Griso 8V went few weeks ago to 40 000km service. Before the service I DID NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE BIKE! After the service I noticed that idle is ~1400-1500rpm. I noticed also increased popping in motor braking. After few days I noticed also that bike did "gough" every now and than when I dropped to idle rpm after ride. OK, I thought that I'll follow this problem and see if something is needed to do. After a week I noticed that bike tried to stall every now and then in idle rpm. Week after that I noticed that my bike did run with one cylinder every now and then when dropped to idle rpm. I never had problems with normal throttle openings when running ~60 --> kmh.

:|

At this week Monday I went to my service and asked them to check what is the problem with the bike. They said that it might be cracked ignition plug caps. They did change the plugs, reseted TPS and tried to put idle rpm to 1200. They also tried to update the software in the ECU. They said that they might not have knowledge enough to use their new ECU tool because they could not reset ECU errors....

:blink:

NOW! Bike idle rpm is 1800 and bike is running rough in idle and small throttle openings! I have GT-RX ECU, PCV and autotune in the bike so I did check how is AFR in idle. It is between 11 and 12!!! WTF? I also noticed that autotune trim values were all going clearly down. SO it must be so that something is really wrong in the bike! Before service trim values were all the time between -10...+10. Now those were ~-20! So bike is running highly rich at the moment.

Does anyone have any idea what is wrong? I don't understand. All the problems started after 40 000km service and now after 2nd service @ 41 000km problems are huge.

 

[Penis Rotor]

If they have tried to re-map the ECU after it hasbeen re-flashed by Todd and the unit is connected to a PCV/AT set-up then all the parameters Todd installed and the PCV settings will now be removed/corrupted or wrong. Why do people do this??? If the bike was running fine why did they feel the need to start jerking around with stuff they clearly have no idea about?

My guess is that you'll have to get the ECU re-flashed again by Todd but heaven only knows what other stupidity may of been inflicted on the bike. Your DID tell them that the machine had been modified didn't you???

Pete

 

[Waiski]

If they have tried to re-map the ECU after it hasbeen re-flashed by Todd and the unit is connected Your DID tell them that the machine had been modified didn't you???

Pete

I really did remind them that ECU is modified! And said that ECU IS NOT ALOUD TO UPDATE. Actually these people are the same who did put re-flashed ECU, PCV and Autotune on the bike... They did this update anyway... But they said that update did not affect on ignition timing or mapping...

Could it be possible that ECU now notices that there is no oxygen sensor and is on some "emergency mode". Actually service light is on at the moment. It was not on when I dropped the bike to the service on Monday! ARGH!
There is error code 'ECU 00'. It tells us nothing...
I think that bike is running now with one cylinder on idle and small throttle openings but works normally on higher throttle openings. No popping at all... because it is running too rich.

Could this be something else than ECU problem?

 

[draidt]

I think Pete hit on the head, Contact Todd and have the ECU reflashed, Altho I have the same set up on my Norge I know enough to not have a dealer anywhere near my ECU with an Axeone or Navigator.
You really should invest in a VDTS if you feel you are technically inclined.

 

[Waiski]

I think Pete hit on the head, Contact Todd and have the ECU reflashed, Altho I have the same set up on my Norge I know enough to not have a dealer anywhere near my ECU with an Axeone or Navigator.
You really should invest in a VDTS if you feel you are technically inclined.

I considered VDTS when I ordered ECU aso. from Todd... I should have bought that... I'm soooooo disappointed at the moment...

 

[Penis Rotor]

I'd also check for yourself if the plug caps are arcing. Take the wings and HT lead covers off and at night, in a dark place, start the bike and look and listen for sparks jumping to the head cover. If you ride it with it not firing you'll flood and clog the cat if you're lucky. If you're unlucky you'll set the bike ablaze!

Pete

Pete

 

[Waiski]

I'd also check for yourself if the plug caps are arcing. Take the wings and HT lead covers off and at night, in a dark place, start the bike and look and listen for sparks jumping to the head cover. If you ride it with it not firing you'll flood and clog the cat if you're lucky. If you're unlucky you'll set the bike ablaze!

Pete

Pete

I'll let people in the service to check the bike once more. I have had really good service there earlier so I believe that they can fix if they have messed up something with the bike. It is possible that ECU have to be re-re-flashed but if it is so, it just need to be done...

But in the future, I'm going to do basic service myself. This bike is not so complicated at all .

Thanks for your help. I need to contact Todd and hear his opinion about the situation.

 

[draidt]

Another thought, If the TPS was off and reset to 4.6-7 The auto tune throttle baseline and WOT have to be re calibrated as well, via the Power Commander PC software.

I would also reset the PCV to the baseline MAP that Todd supplied. This is what I do after I reset my TPS via VDTS, Adjust Valves and balance the TB's

 

[Waiski]

I've been studying today more how to set up throttle bodies and idle correctly.

If I understand correctly:
After valve adjustment
1. TPS reset (value should be after reset between 4,5...4,9)
2. Cylinder synchronisation @ 3000RPM. This is done with vacuometer and spring loaded screw(on left TB). By-pass screws needs to be fully closed when doing this. No more than 1cm Hg difference between TB's is aloud
3. Idle adjust @ idle RPM(closed throttle). Done with vacuometer and by-pass screws. Open that TB's by-pass screw with higher depression so that vacuometer shows "full" balance.
4. If idle RPM is not between 1000-1200RPM. Use CO trim to correct idle RPM.

Simple? I think it is!
When looking my bike. I see that spring loaded TB balance screw has never adjusted(there is unbroken yellow seal on the screw)!? Could it be so that there has been no need for adjustment? Bike has 41 000km and one cam swap done. I see also that by-pass screws on both TB's are open. Is this correct?

Could it be so that when I dropped the bike to 40 000km service they did set bike incorrectly and bike was running bad. Also idle CO trim was not correct. Unfortunately also spark plug cap was broken in the service.

Is this just conspiracy theory or not

 

[Waiski]

Another thought, If the TPS was off and reset to 4.6-7 The auto tune throttle baseline and WOT have to be re calibrated as well, via the Power Commander PC software.

I would also reset the PCV to the baseline MAP that Todd supplied. This is what I do after I reset my TPS via VDTS, Adjust Valves and balance the TB's

Thanks draidt! That is something worth to try!

 

[GTM®]

They also tried to update the software in the ECU. They said that they might not have knowledge enough to use their new ECU tool because they could not reset ECU errors....

Is there any warning errors or codes on the dashboard? It sure sounds like their "lack of knowledge" of the Navigator tool might have bitten you. If AutoTune is showing bizarre numbers, and the bike is running erratically, I too suspect the ECU will need to be re-fashed again (sorry to say).
You do need to be sure the bike has no other issues, mechanically or electrically (the plug caps can wreak havoc). I've had pretty much zero issues like this with the ECU/PC-V/AT for ~2+ years now.

 

[Waiski]

They also tried to update the software in the ECU. They said that they might not have knowledge enough to use their new ECU tool because they could not reset ECU errors....

Is there any warning errors or codes on the dashboard? It sure sounds like their "lack of knowledge" of the Navigator tool might have bitten you. If AutoTune is showing bizarre numbers, and the bike is running erratically, I too suspect the ECU will need to be re-fashed again (sorry to say).
You do need to be sure the bike has no other issues, mechanically or electrically (the plug caps can wreak havoc). I've had pretty much zero issues like this with the ECU/PC-V/AT for ~2+ years now.

Yes there is warning error 'ECU 00' on the dashboard. In the service they said that diagnostic tool tells cylinder problem. They assumed that it was sparc plug cup problem. Sparc plugs is also my quess because bike started to run worse in rainy conditions.

Could someone please tell me is this correct...
After valve adjustment
1. TPS reset (value should be after reset between 4,5...4,9) and PCV throttle% reset
2. Cylinder synchronisation @ 3000RPM. This is done with vacuometer and spring loaded screw(on left TB). By-pass screws needs to be fully closed when doing this. No more than 1cm Hg difference between TB's is aloud
3. Idle adjust @ idle RPM(closed throttle). Done with vacuometer and by-pass screws. Open that TB's by-pass screw with higher depression so that vacuometer shows "full" balance.
4. If idle RPM is not between 1000-1200RPM. Use CO trim to correct idle RPM.

 

[john zibell]

Do high speed sync with bypass screws closed. Do idle sync (open only one bypass if needed at all). TPS reset is the last thing you do. Doing the high speed sync can impact the TPS reading.

 

[Waiski]

Do high speed sync with bypass screws closed. Do idle sync (open only one bypass if needed at all). TPS reset is the last thing you do. Doing the high speed sync can impact the TPS reading.

Thanks for the correction John.

One thing is weird. This high speed sync screw has yellow mark, it is like a seal. I asked today from service that do they use this spring loaded screw to adjust TB's@3000RPM. They said no and said also that importer has told that it is not aloud to use. I have also checked one other 8V Griso here and that had also unbroken yellow paint seal on the screw(never adjusted). So, to use or not?

 

[john zibell]

Do high speed sync with bypass screws closed. Do idle sync (open only one bypass if needed at all). TPS reset is the last thing you do. Doing the high speed sync can impact the TPS reading.

Thanks for the correction John.

One thing is weird. This high speed sync screw has yellow mark, it is like a seal. I asked today from service that do they use this spring loaded screw to adjust TB's@3000RPM. They said no and said also that importer has told that it is not aloud to use. I have also checked one other 8V Griso here and that had also unbroken yellow paint seal on the screw(never adjusted). So, to use or not?

Use the screw. I turn it with a 7mm wrench. If you use the wrench, you can't see if the paint is broken. It is much simpler than messing with the connecting rod. I think they are confusing the sync screw with the throttle stop screw which should not be touched. Take a look at the procedure in the 1100 Breva service manual that you can download from this site. It is the same procedure for all.

 

[Waiski]

The battle continues...

Could some one send me details what info diagnostic tool should say when connecting to GT-Rx ECU
- what is map no. or name?
- any other details I can check?
- any details how to identify if they have updated something in ECU?

ALL THE INFO IS IMPORTANT AND I'M VERY THANKFUL FOR YOUR HELP! also a bit desperated

They have checked about everything in the bike and can't fin a reason for rough running in idle and small throttle openings

Edit: should there be any error codes on in the ECU. Like 'no oxygen sensor' ?

 

[Waiski]

OK, no comments?

Any comments after seeing these pictures from Navigator? Could it be stepper motor? Or can you see anything else from these pictures.

 

[Waiski]

The End result:

What was wrong in the beginning:
Spark plug caps
Crack in the exhaust

What was wrong after the service:
Crack in the exhaust (I found that later)
Over written ECU! They updated Gt-Rx ECU in the service even I had denied that. They did not confessed that...

Bike was in the service about 3 weeks and they could not find any reason for the symptoms... OK. I picked up the bike and sent ECU to Todd. Todd confirmed that ECU was over written. Todd fixed the ECU and sent it back to me(also VDST). I connected the ECU to the bike and almost all the symptoms were gone! Only symptom left was high idle, otherwise bike did run perfectly. After closer look I found that there was crack in the exhaus and therefore Autotune saw faulty information and tried to enrich the mixture in idle RPM. Welded the exhaust and adjusted the autotune... everything ok!

One more funny thing . I needed to teach to service people how to sync the TB's :blink: :evil: inch:
But now I have perfectly running bike and I have all the equipment to do the service myself! . Thanks again Todd!

The End of the story!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e5_jsY4oEc

 

[draidt]

End result:

What was wrong in the beginning:
Spark plug cups
Crack in the exhaust

What was wrong after the service:
Crack in the exhaust (I found that later)
Over written ECU! They updated Gt-Rx ECU in the service even I had denied that. They did not confessed that...

Bike was in the service about 3 weeks and they could not find any reason for the symptoms... OK. I picked up the bike and sent ECU to Todd. Todd confirmed that ECU was over written. Todd fixed the ECU and sent it back to me(also VDST). I connected the ECU to the bike and almost all the symptoms were gone! Only symptom left was high idle, otherwise bike did run perfectly. After closer look I found that there was crack in the exhaus and therefore Autotune saw faulty information and tried to enrich the mixture in idle RPM. Welded the exhaust and adjusted the autotune... everything ok!

One more funny thing . I needed to teach to service people how to sync the TB's :blink: :evil: inch:
But now I have perfectly running bike and I have all the equipment to do the service myself! . Thanks again Todd!

The End of the story!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e5_jsY4oEc

Well Alright now !

One thing, who replaced the plug caps ? If it was the dealer and they put in the new style Guzzi caps, ditch them they will give you trouble down the road again, Get the NGK SB05E caps Cheap and easy to do. My caps got swapped out the first time I change the oil on my SE. the old ones get damage too easily if the ham fisted mechanic just rips off the the spark plug wire to get access to the spark plug.
check this video out on proper way to remove.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPQFl7W-H88

 

[Waiski]

Well Alright now !

One thing, who replaced the plug caps ? If it was the dealer and they put in the new style Guzzi caps, ditch them they will give you trouble down the road again, Get the NGK SB05E caps Cheap and easy to do. My caps got swapped out the first time I change the oil on my SE. the old ones get damage too easily if the ham fisted mechanic just rips off the the spark plug wire to get access to the spark plug.
check this video out on proper way to remove.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPQFl7W-H88

Dealer replaced the caps. Yeah, good point! I'll buy those NGK caps just in case!

Thanks!